Illustrated Pips VS Non-Illustrated

[Lee]

Thanks Mary, that is indeed an interesting link! I still think, though, that it doesn't refute the sentence in my original post: "People in the 17th or 18th centuries who used the tarot for divination wouldn't have used a suit+number system. They would probably have used simple fortune-telling type meanings, perhaps similar to Etteilla's." All references to divination with cards that I've seen point to the use of Etteilla-type fortune-telling meanings, until Marteau. Certainly they considered numerology in relation to the cards, but I believe that the sorts of people thinking about esoteric numerology in those days would have been different than the sorts of people who used cards for fortune-telling.

But I'm only going by what I've read, and could easily be mistaken.

-- Lee

 

[Teheuti]

Lee - I agree with you 18th century tarot. In my post I meant to be responding specifically to the 2nd half of what I quoted from you:

all methods of assigning meaning to Marseille pips are equally arbitrary

When I said "earlier" I meant BEFORE Etteilla. Certainly among Renaissance intellectuals, if there had been any divination with non-scenic pips (other than lot-book style), it would likely have been based on an understanding of the meaning of numbers and probably of suits.

Etteilla's meanings created the necessity for memorizing what each card meant (or having it written on the card itself). This may have descended from a set of lot-book meanings where the cards were merely indicators or placeholders for an oracle statement. Etteilla did say he learned to read cards from an old Italian woman.

Mary

 

[Lee]

Certainly among Renaissance intellectuals, if there had been any divination with non-scenic pips (other than lot-book style), it would likely have been based on an understanding of the meaning of numbers and probably of suits.

But I guess this is where my confusion comes in -- do we have any indication that such divination did in fact occur among Renaissance intellectuals, and if so, how they did it? If not, then it's merely speculation, although certainly valid and interesting speculation.

I'm not trying to be pedantic -- it's just that while I can see that certainly those intellectuals had ideas about the meaning of numbers, I'm not convinced that it ever would have occurred to them to apply those meanings to what they would have considered as fortune-telling, had they been inclined to practice it.

-- Lee

 

[Teheuti]

But I guess this is where my confusion comes in -- do we have any indication that such divination did in fact occur among Renaissance intellectuals, and if so, how they did it? If not, then it's merely speculation

I never suggested it was anything but speculation. We have no direct evidence of Tarot or playing card divination - if you adhere to a very narrow definition of what divination is (i.e., that it doesn't include divining character, etc.). But, number divination was rampant - see _Medieval Number Symbolism: Its sources, Meaning, and Influence on Thought and Expression_ by Vincent Foster Hopper, in which we find:

"Divination and the Black Arts took numerous forms on which it is not necessary to dwell further, unless it be to remark that all of them utilized the magic properties of numbers in their rituals and that one of them, arithmancy, relied entirely on the mysteries of the decimal system." p. 125

Mary

 

[kwaw]

I just found the reference - know as "Cards Spiritualized; or, the Soldier's Almanac, Bible and Prayer Book". It's not as old as I thought, at least in this version:

http://www.newtscards.com/history_biblestory.asp

Mary

Here is an older version with some variations from 1748, but of a servant not a soldier:

Of a Pack of CARDS.

A Certain Gentleman having two Servants, one Servant complained to his Master of his fellow-servant, that he was a great Player of Cards, which the Master would not allow in his family; he called for the Servant complained of, and tax'd him.

He knew not what Cards meant.

At which the Master was angry with the Complainer, and called him to hear what he could farther say; Who desired, he might be immediately searched, so he believed, he at that Time had a Pack in his Pocket. And accordingly he was searched and a Pack found in his Pocket; which he would not own to be Cards, but said:

That it was his Almanack.

His Master asked him, How he made it appear to be his Almanack? His Answer was,

“There are in these Things you call Cards, as many Sorts as there are Quarters in the Year; that is four, Spades, Clubs, Hearts and Diamonds: There are as many Court Cards as there are Months in the Year, and as many Cards as there are weeks in the Year; and there are as many Pips as there are Days in the Year.”

At which his Master wondered; asking him, Did he make no other Use of them ? He answered thus :

“When I see the King, it puts me in Mind of the Loyalty I owe to my Sovereign Lord the King; when I see the Queen, it puts me in mind of the same; when I see the Ten, it puts me in mind of the Ten Commandments; the Nine, of the Nine Muses; the Eight, of the Eight Beatitudes; the Seven, of the Seven liberal Sciences; the Six, of the Six Days we mould labour in; the Five, of the Five Senses; the Four, of the Four Evangelists; the Tray, of the Trinity; the Deuce, of the Two Sacraments; and the Ace, that we ought to worship but one God.”

Says the Master, “this is an excellent Use you make of them; but why did you not make mention of the Knave?”

“Sir, I thought I had no occasion to mention him, because he is here present”', clapping his Hand on his fellow-Servant's shoulder.

From Brett's Miscellany by Peter Brett 1748.

Kwaw

 

[Teheuti]

Kwaw -

Thanks for finding that. The way the story is told makes it sound like a much older story that's simply being retold. I wonder how old it really is.

Mary

 

[kwaw]

Thanks for finding that. The way the story is told makes it sound like a much older story that's simply being retold. I wonder how old it really is.

The part that concerns us, the application of number symbolism to cards, goes back to at least the first decade of the 16th century, where if memory serves me right (and it may not be) exactly the same associations (based as it is on endemic, ubiquitous and exoteric christian number symbolism) can be found in German kartenlossbuch. That is ace, one god, tray the trinity, 6/7 the six days of labour or creation and day of rest etc. Not at home at the moment but if memory serves me right Kaplan discusses a kartenlossbuch in volume 1, not sure exactly where but opposite the page early on where he discusses the soldiers almanac (which is indexed under 'calendar' I think), around pages 8 or 9 (I think).

Huck has some material on kartenlossbuch too

 

[spoonbender]

The same sort of theme is also present in Het Geestelijck Kaertspel met Herten Troef oft t'Spel der Liefde (The Spiritual Card Game with Hearts Trumps or the Game of Love), a book written by Joseph a Sancta Barbara, published in 1666. He treats the Hearts of a playing card deck and equates each card with a Christian subject: the King of Hearts is God the Father, the Queen is the Virgin Mary, the Knave (often called "Zot" in Dutch, which means "Fool") is the converted sinners and those who are just and humble, the 10 is the Ten Commandments, the 9 is the nine Choirs of Angels, the 8 is the eight Beatitudes, the 7 is the seven Works of Mercy, and so on. There are also engravings in the book; Hargrave reproduces four of them in A History of Playing Cards.

Spoon

 

[spoonbender]

Not at home at the moment but if memory serves me right Kaplan discusses a kartenlossbuch in volume 1, not sure exactly where but opposite the page early on where he discusses the soldiers almanac (which is indexed under 'calendar' I think), around pages 8 or 9 (I think).

Good memory! I looked it up and apparently it's page 10: "In the sixteenth century a book written by Jacob Cammerlander described each pip card with its moral and spiritual associations. For example, in the suit of hearts the five stands for the five books of Moses, four hearts suggests the four evangelists, three hearts the Trinity, and two hearts the tablets of the Ten Commandments."

Edited to add: this thread should also be of interest.