Krampus and the Cary Sheet

[jmd]

How very pleasing to see this image, le pendu!

I mentioned earlier that I had a seen a similar image that I thought was on either a church or cathedral... I suspect it may have been another miniature instead, but still fail to locate it, but have at least now re-directed my search in some books along those lines.

With specific regard to the image, and though of French origin, I wonder if it was not, in any case, in part influenced by perhaps Italianate style. This does not take away from a possibility of the Cary-type Devil to be around in France, as the image demonstrates, but rather that the image-type may be more broadly represented, even if we have trouble finding instances of the same.

 

[le pendu]

With specific regard to the image, and though of French origin, I wonder if it was not, in any case, in part influenced by perhaps Italianate style. This does not take away from a possibility of the Cary-type Devil to be around in France, as the image demonstrates, but rather that the image-type may be more broadly represented, even if we have trouble finding instances of the same.

Well sure.

What does finding a similar devil in France before the Cary Sheet tell me?? It tells me not to rule France out as a possible origin for the image; and also, when considering origins, to think of France as a contender... which until now.. I've not been likely to do. I've thought of the image as "german" or "swiss", now I see that it existed in Paris long before the Cary sheet was created.

What seems clear is that so much of the iconography found in various forms of the tarot were familiar to "Europeans" during the 14th and 15th century, and it is difficult to pin it down to a certain time or place.
en?" "Why?".

I look at the Cary Sheet as a very important document.

It's the first time we see iconography that is clearly related to the TdM. The oldest remaining TdM deck is the Jean Noblet from 1650. It seems that the Cary Sheet could be anywhere from 100-200 years older. To me, that's critical when trying to find the origin of the TdM. Did the Cary Sheet "evolve" into the TdM? Or is it just a "bastardization" of the TdM? Exactly HOW is it related?

(This is a great thread exploring the Cary sheet: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=62044 )

All of this gets more complicated when we start talking about the Origin of Tarot itself. Is there any way we can show that the TdM is actually the oldest pattern? Is there anything about the Cary sheet that can help argue this? Is the TdM really "French"? Or was it developed in Italy, most likely Milan, and then travelled to France?

If the Cary Sheet is related to the TdM, does finding related iconography indicating it might actually be French in origin mean anything? Maybe.

We've got TdM iconography in the Cary sheet, without titles and numbers. We've got TdM iconography in the Sforza Castle cards without titles and numbers. To me, both of these seem older that the 1650 Noblet, or the 1701ish Dodal (or certainly the later Conver).

Why would French titles, and numbers, be added on to the cards? It makes sense to me that if the TdM was created in Italy, without titles and numbers, it might have then traveled to France and these would have been added to aid in "understanding" and "gameplay".

What does the Cary sheet show as a point of tarot development?