The Emperor Should be Leo. Why is Aries the Equivalent Sign?

[Sulis]

And most readers also assign not only Earth signs to Pents, Water signs to Cups, Air signs to Swords and Fire signs to Wands, but also assign Cardinals, Fixed and Mutables to all of a type. Meaning, for example, all Kings Cardinal, all Queens Fixed and all Knights Mutable. Pages don't get zodiac signs.

Most tarot readers to that? Really?
I don't and I know plenty of readers who don't use astrology in their tarot readings either.

I know nothing about astrology so don't assign astrological correspondences to the cards at all and I think I do quite well but then I tend to use the Tarot de Marseilles mostly and that came before all the esoteric stuff was piled onto tarot.

I think astrology and tarot are 2 different things and they don't have to meet or connect in any way at all.

 

[Thirteen]

Most tarot readers to that? Really?
I don't and I know plenty of readers who don't use astrology in their tarot readings either.

Guess we've met different "mosts" What I should have said is that most readers who use astrology in their readings do that. I have added that amendment to my original post

 

[Thirteen]

Scorpio, Leo, Aries and the Emperor

Now my other Birth Card (and also one of my Shadow Cards), is the Death Card and much of what I learned about Tarot states Death is the equivalent of Scorpio.

Scorpio's planet is Mars (alternate to Pluto). Just like the Emperor. Had you considered that? That Scorpio shares a lot with the Emperor given that war-like planet? Armored, fighting spirit, transform what you see into what you want it to be?

Leo is traditionally considered the embodiment of Willpower and indeed Leo's motto is even "I WILL". It doesn't help the Sun is also considered the embodiment of willpower in Astrology.

Which is why Strength is Leo in Tarot. Because Strength is all about the most important willpower of all--will power over yourself. The Emperor is willpower over the external world, but Leo is about using that creative energy and will power to make yourself into what you want to be. Strength is a much harder battle and one that requires a great deal more will power. And so it's given Leo. Leo's will power would be too limited if used for the Emperor.

Putting it another way--Aries is a Cardinal sign, that means it motivates--comes up with the idea like a Steve Jobs--but lets others make that idea a reality. Leo is a fixed sign. That means it doesn't come up with the ideas--but once it is motivated by an idea from, say a Steve Jobs, it makes the thing a reality (think Johnny Ives). Aires is Captain Kirk saying, "We need to do X to win--Scotty--can you do it?" And Scotty, Leo, says, "I think so!" and makes it happen.

That's why you need Aries as the Emperor--because he can lead and motivate and inspire others to make his vision real. And that is why you need Leo for Strength, because he is fixed and determined and will make it happen. Yes?

 

[tarotbear]

MostI think astrology and tarot are 2 different things and they don't have to meet or connect in any way at all.

I think there is a small percentage of overlap, but I feel it is because those several things already existed as a part of tarot or as a part of astrology, not that one system was created to be the counterpart to the other, or that they developed from a common root source. It is like all cultures have 'creation myths' but diverse cultures may have similar myths.

Numerology and Tarot overlap, but the numerology in Tarot was 'fitted in' somewhere in ancient history. This is evident in the calculation of Life numbers because the numbers do exist; it is the cards of the Major Arcana that do not fill the number sequence.

 

[MorteImperator]

Scorpio's planet is Mars (alternate to Pluto). Just like the Emperor. Had you considered that? That Scorpio shares a lot with the Emperor given that war-like planet? Armored, fighting spirit, transform what you see into what you want it to be?


Which is why Strength is Leo in Tarot. Because Strength is all about the most important willpower of all--will power over yourself. The Emperor is willpower over the external world, but Leo is about using that creative energy and will power to make yourself into what you want to be. Strength is a much harder battle and one that requires a great deal more will power. And so it's given Leo. Leo's will power would be too limited if used for the Emperor.

Putting it another way--Aries is a Cardinal sign, that means it motivates--comes up with the idea like a Steve Jobs--but lets others make that idea a reality. Leo is a fixed sign. That means it doesn't come up with the ideas--but once it is motivated by an idea from, say a Steve Jobs, it makes the thing a reality (think Johnny Ives). Aires is Captain Kirk saying, "We need to do X to win--Scotty--can you do it?" And Scotty, Leo, says, "I think so!" and makes it happen.

That's why you need Aries as the Emperor--because he can lead and motivate and inspire others to make his vision real. And that is why you need Leo for Strength, because he is fixed and determined and will make it happen. Yes?

(SCRATCHES HEAD)

Wow Tarot equivalent of Astrology really can be soooooo different and confusing.

I guess I should just study Tarot as its own for now rather than trying to interlap it with Astrology.

While Aries can be leaders, most Astrology forums I go to agree Leo would be the one generally associated as "leader" (hence they're considered the best organizers after Virgo and the one with the best managerial skills) .

Now you're getting into a whole other topic altogether >.> when you started trying to bring up Mars as the planet of Scorpio.

Matter of fact I am curious-the Tarot Associations witht he Zodiac are they based on current Tropical Astrology or older systems like Hellenistic?

Maybe that would better as to why Aries is the Emperor.

Still Aries as "DISCIPLINED" and "STOIC"? Unless there is another placement renown for discipline like Capricorn or Scorpio, most Aries I know are anything but those two mentioned words.

 

[Thirteen]

Empress & Queens are Managers

While Aries can be leaders, most Astrology forums I go to agree Leo would be the one generally associated as "leader" (hence they're considered the best organizers after Virgo and the one with the best managerial skills)

Ah. This isn't as much of a head-scratcher as you think. You see, in Tarot, the Queens (and Empress) often have an equal/opposite relationship and in certain decks, they are the "Leaders" when you're talking managerial skills. The Queens are usually the fixed signs. Meaning the ones who run the show while the King is out there being the politician, the preacher, the firebrand, the idea man, the great general. So if you have a King/Wands (Aries) then your Queen/Wands is Leo.

So, yes, Leo is the leader if you're talking about hands-on management.

Now you're getting into a whole other topic altogether >.> when you started trying to bring up Mars as the planet of Scorpio.

Tarot was created and astrological associations given to it long before Pluto was discovered. When Pluto came onto the scene newer decks incorporated it. I've no idea what Astrologers are doing now that Pluto has been demoted and we're officially at eight planets rather than nine.

Still Aries as "DISCIPLINED" and "STOIC"?

Not from what I've read and learned. Quite the opposite actually. Aries/Emperor is often viewed as the "baby"--who is Emperor of every household. Everyone is his servant. If he's a good baby, then he's irresistible and everyone wants to do things for him. But if he's a bad baby...Remember--all tarot cards can be ill-dignfied and have negatives, and the big negative of the Emperor is this bad-baby side that is always demanding something and has no patience, discipline or stoicism.

His value is in seeing possibilities that others can't see and communicating those to them in a way that gets everyone moving in the same direction, be they warriors or inventors or builders. THAT is the kind of leader he is--but that is not a leader who is going to be patient or stoical. That's a man who can't understand why everyone can't see what he's seeing and just do what he says, because he knows how good it will be if they obey him. That's not a hands-on-manager.

Which is where the Empress steps in--she is Venus (think Taurus-esque)--and she is in every way his equal, his partner, and a leader in her own right. It is her job to cultivate and grow things, to be the ultimate Mother, protecting what is fragile and needs nurturing till it can leave the nest--be that children or new-idea-men. She is slow and patient and insists on giving things as much time as they need; she brings beauty and civility, arts and stability to the Empire. What the Emperor lacks, she has and vice versa. She is the hands-on-manager.

 

[Richard]

.....I know nothing about astrology so don't assign astrological correspondences to the cards at all and I think I do quite well but then I tend to use the Tarot de Marseilles mostly and that came before all the esoteric stuff was piled onto tarot.....

In effect it looks like something was piled on top of something else, but what really happened was a most amazing thing! Tarot and Qabalah developed independently, and then it was discovered that there is an incredible correlation between the Tarot and the Tree of Life. The probability of this being a concidence is effectively zero. (The "esoteric stuff" came from Qabalistic speculation about the Hebrew alphabet and the Tree of Life.)

The Golden Dawn merely aligned the Tarot with the Hebrew alphabet, and Bob's your uncle. Since then there have been some minor tweaks and additions, but in a nutshell it was simply the discovery of an astounding parallelism between two seemingly unrelated traditions: Tarot and Qabalah. Thereafter the discovery didn't remain merely a plaything for occultists, but it became the basis for the Rider deck, which caught on like wildfire and revolutionized future Tarot design (for better or worse).

It didn't help that the occultists invented some wild tales about Tarot and Qabalah, and this understandably turns some people off (it did me), but the fact of the unexplainable coincidence remains. Whenever a correlation violates the laws of probability so flagrantly, it can only be classified as a mystery.