The Enneagram and the Tarot

[psychic sue]

Another reason is that 3's, who I mentioned before as being changeable, tend to "become" for others whatever others want them to be, or whatever is the most efficatious at the moment for achieving their goals. If you really are a 3, it might be hard for you to know what you are really like since you would be taking on other personae regularly possibly without really realizing it.

However, as I mentioned before, I do not think that a test is the most accurate way to determine one's own type. I believe that reading a good detailed description of the type's motivation is.

Sorry, I could go on for days about this. All for now.

Thanks for the insight.

I really am not like a 3 at all. I do empathise with people, but I don't change my view to fit other people's, however, I am happy to listen and I re-consider a point if I hadn't thought of it that particular way before. I think you are right about the test.

I can see I have lots of reading to do. This is so interesting!

 

[The Dreamer]

Now I'm afraid I've just contributed to stereotyping 3's. It's not their view so much that changes, but their behavior- and depending upon how healthy they are, they may not do that much at all.

The point about 3's 6's and 9's all having a bit of trouble in typing themselves is also very true, especially for 9s, but I've seen it most often with 3s.
I tend to think of the 3-6-9 grouping as more in flow with the external environment also. They are also said to be different from the other types in that they "repress their primary function"- that is, feeling, thinking, or acting. I am not part of the 3-6-9 triangle and I've never quite figured out what that's all about. I'd like to hear more about what people of those types think about that idea from the inside.

The book which was mentioned is a very good one in my opinion as well.

There are a few old threads here about correlating court cards with MBTI- it seemed to work pretty well.
I'm still not sure what I think of MBTI. (I always come out as INTJ). Many people say that their type for that test comes out differently at different times in their lives. I think it's more of a rough description of the things people do, but not what they are.
The most useful part of it, I think, is the sensing/intuitive distinction. I find that part really holds up- people really do fall on one side or the other of that one. I even find that I have come up with kind of subtypes of the enneagram types based upon whether the people are S or N. I always find that the S/N divide causes huge differences in viewpoint between people, an in what kind of actions people take, regardless of what the underlying motivation is.

Regarding astrology and trying to hook it up with enneagram- I think that the total chart, and not just the sun sign, will show the dynamics of what kind of person the individual is. I often have been able to look at a chart and say- well, that person is a 7, or whatever. Not all people of one type will be the same sun sign, of course- I think that knowing the sun sign and astrological dynamics helps to add more detailed understanding of the specific individual ways that people will act, the specifics of which will go beyond their enneagram number's motivation alone, but of course will be contained within it. I think of astrology as just a different thing. It shows the person's makeup from a different and detailed perspective. The enneagram is more like a template of the forces they will act within. It's the why, and astrology is the what. They don't contradict, but they're not the same thing.

And the same with tarot, I think. It might be good to just make up enneagram cards or something for divination in that regard. Tarot won't contradict enneagram, but it is just a different system of getting at knowledge.

I'm awaiting in the mail a book about "The eastern mysteries" and which is supposed to have some content about the more esoteric aspects of enneagram. I hope there's something new to learn from it. I'm also awaiting a second book about "The Cube Of Space" which is supposed to connect tarot and Kabbalah with people's spiritual journeys. Maybe there's some enneagram related Tree Of Life thing connected with tarot- who knows.

Regarding "Defeat" in my tarot reading- I didn't really ask a specific question, I just laid out the nine cards to get anything related to the enneagram. I don't know if the cards were supposed to specify the types. Maybe they were supposed to specify people.
The divinatory meaning of the Defeat card is "an overwhelming situation. need to hold on to principles until the time comes to make a change."
That could signify fives, or me as a five, or me in this situation.
Or, it could mean that trying to hook up tarot and enneagram would end in defeat. I don't know.

We 5s 6s and 7s tend to over analyze.

 

[Skysteel]

Now I'm afraid I've just contributed to stereotyping 3's. It's not their view so much that changes, but their behavior- and depending upon how healthy they are, they may not do that much at all.

Shame on you!
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I tend to think of the 3-6-9 grouping as more in flow with the external environment also. They are also said to be different from the other types in that they "repress their primary function"- that is, feeling, thinking, or acting. I am not part of the 3-6-9 triangle and I've never quite figured out what that's all about. I'd like to hear more about what people of those types think about that idea from the inside.

Hmm...well, I repress my own thinking by adopting external systems - everything I do is in reference to something outside myself. Basically, I can't think for myself; my opinions tend to be dictated by whatever system I currently have adopted.
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There are a few old threads here about correlating court cards with MBTI- it seemed to work pretty well.
I'm still not sure what I think of MBTI. (I always come out as INTJ). Many people say that their type for that test comes out differently at different times in their lives. I think it's more of a rough description of the things people do, but not what they are.
The most useful part of it, I think, is the sensing/intuitive distinction. I find that part really holds up- people really do fall on one side or the other of that one. I even find that I have come up with kind of subtypes of the enneagram types based upon whether the people are S or N. I always find that the S/N divide causes huge differences in viewpoint between people, an in what kind of actions people take, regardless of what the underlying motivation is.

Heh...I used to be an INFP. Then, some people started telling me I was an INTJ. I took the test again, and guess what? I was an INTJ. I can't think for myself!
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I'm pretty sure I'm an N and not an S, though.

Regarding astrology and trying to hook it up with enneagram- I think that the total chart, and not just the sun sign, will show the dynamics of what kind of person the individual is. I often have been able to look at a chart and say- well, that person is a 7, or whatever. Not all people of one type will be the same sun sign, of course- I think that knowing the sun sign and astrological dynamics helps to add more detailed understanding of the specific individual ways that people will act, the specifics of which will go beyond their enneagram number's motivation alone, but of course will be contained within it. I think of astrology as just a different thing. It shows the person's makeup from a different and detailed perspective. The enneagram is more like a template of the forces they will act within. It's the why, and astrology is the what. They don't contradict, but they're not the same thing.

...I think Astrology may be too deep for me.
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Recently, over at the EIDB (Enneagram Institute Discussion Boards), someone claimed to be able to conclude a person's Type from that person's Horoscope - that someone failed to validate that claim, although I suppose there was some bias against Astrology.

And the same with tarot, I think. It might be good to just make up enneagram cards or something for divination in that regard. Tarot won't contradict enneagram, but it is just a different system of getting at knowledge.

I was going to make some Enneagram cards, but was unsure how many to make, and what exact form they should take - perhaps 27 cards, 9 Types multiplied by Healthy, Average and Unhealthy?

Regarding "Defeat" in my tarot reading- I didn't really ask a specific question, I just laid out the nine cards to get anything related to the enneagram. I don't know if the cards were supposed to specify the types. Maybe they were supposed to specify people.
The divinatory meaning of the Defeat card is "an overwhelming situation. need to hold on to principles until the time comes to make a change."
That could signify fives, or me as a five, or me in this situation.
Or, it could mean that trying to hook up tarot and enneagram would end in defeat. I don't know.

Well, the fear of being overwhelemed is 5ish, I believe.

We 5s 6s and 7s tend to over analyze.

Yep.
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[The Dreamer]

Well, the fear of being overwhelmed is 5ish, I believe.

You believe correctly.

I was going to make some Enneagram cards, but was unsure how many to make, and what exact form they should take - perhaps 27 cards, 9 Types multiplied by Healthy, Average and Unhealthy?

Well, with divination, I think it's good to have a wide range of possibilities to draw from, specific but with some leeway for interpretation. I've read the book you spoke of, which delineates a spectrum of health and unhealth- that's kind of hard to quantify. (Now I'm imagining pictures for these cards- a 5 running around telling jokes at one stage of unhealthy, having hallucinations at another; a 1 lying in bed in depression at one stage of unhealthy, or ranting in road rage at another driver in his "trance" of anger... ) These health/unhealth lines are a little hard to draw, because some of them have to do with "going to" the stress-disintegration point, and some have to do with a type's essential characteristics- discernment/anger/indignation for 1s, strength/power/vengeance for 8s, etc.
I like to focus more on the integration/disintegration dynamic than to label people as healthy or unhealthy.

Maybe 36 cards, each number with each of its wings, each card specifying "going to" an integration or disintegration point. (For type 6, 6w5 at 9; 6w5 at 3; 6w7 at 9; 6w7 at 3.) Maybe in red when it's their disintegration, and green when it's their integration.
Also just plain wing types not going to another point could be used in addition. (That would make two more cards for each number, bringing the total to 54 cards.)
Some people like to use introversion/extroversion in conjunction with enneagram, and that could add more nuances. Maybe reversals could signify that.
Perhaps the S/N distinction could be incorporated.

Some ideas.

 

[Skysteel]

Well, with divination, I think it's good to have a wide range of possibilities to draw from, specific but with some leeway for interpretation.

I suppose so...that's why I like the Enneagram Types! Each Type has a lot of scope, even within 'Healthy/Unhealthy' distinctions.

I've read the book you spoke of, which delineates a spectrum of health and unhealth- that's kind of hard to quantify. (Now I'm imagining pictures for these cards- a 5 running around telling jokes at one stage of unhealthy, having hallucinations at another; a 1 lying in bed in depression at one stage of unhealthy, or ranting in road rage at another driver in his "trance" of anger... ). These health/unhealth lines are a little hard to draw, because some of them have to do with "going to" the stress-disintegration point, and some have to do with a type's essential characteristics- discernment/anger/indignation for 1s, strength/power/vengeance for 8s, etc.

Well, there's Unhealthy, and then there's Disintegration - the two scenarios are pretty sharply defined. Typically, one moves in ones Direction of Disintegration to avoid becoming even more Unhealthy in their Basic Type. For example, Unhealthy E1s are punitive, critical and intolerant - Disintegrated E1s are depressive, feel alienated and suicidal. The E1 may be at the same Level of Development (Unhealthy, Level 8?) during both phases, but the latter only occurs during times of increased stress.

I like to focus more on the integration/disintegration dynamic than to label people as healthy or unhealthy.

Well, Integration and Disintegration is a part of Healthy/Unhealthy. You can't really justify one without the other; an E6 does not spontaneously become E9 - the E6 must be 'Healthy'.

Maybe 36 cards, each number with each of its wings, each card specifying "going to" an integration disintegration point. (For type 6, 6w5 at 9; 6w5 at 3; 6w7 at 9; 6w7 at 3.) Maybe in red when it's their disintegration, and green when it's their integration.
Also just plain wing types not going to another point could be used in addition. (That would make two more cards for each number, bringing the total to 54 cards.)

Sounds good.
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Some people like to use introversion/extroversion in conjunction with enneagram, and that could add more nuances. Maybe reversals could signify that.
Perhaps the S/N distinction could be incorporated.

Some people claim that each Type is intrinsically related to a Jungian Function - for instance, there are very few Extroverted E5s, because E5 corresponds to Introverted Thinking.

 

[The Dreamer]

Yes, I believe that there are few extroverted 5s. I think that the line between extroversion and introversion can be a blurry one, though, and can have some fluidity throughout the person's life.

The wide range of scope which is still correct is what I also love about the enneagram. But the point I was trying to make is that to have a card which says "unhealthy" might be too specific, and not allow enough room for interpretation.

I tend to view the scenario which you presented with 1's in the reverse way that you do.
I really do think that health/unheath is a seperate thing from integration/disintegration. Also, that going to one's integration point can help one to achieve health, and not only that one just goes to the integration point when one is healthy in other ways.
4 is 1's disnintegration point. Four-style depression is something which they will always will be prone to- it is what they retreat to when under stress. They do not have to become suicidal because of it, and it may have little to do with becoming punitive and intolerant. Being punitive, critical and intolerant is something which many socially well adjusted 1's (who will probably never commit suicide) do as a matter of course. Anger is part of their nature, as a result of their desire for discernment and perfectionism. They are hardest on themselves. Some 1's are almost never punitive toward others, yet become depressed anyway and may even commit suicide.

I don't think anyone spontaneously becomes anything. External circumstances and internal drives and adjustments lead to the integration.
I really think that even acting "as if" (say, a 5 just trying to act more like an 8) can at times help people to be more integrated, and probably more healthy.

I have also seen that some people, when they start going more toward their integration point, will appear to be acting extremely or in an unbalanced way by others. However, for their own psyche, they are coming to achieve integration.

I often find that some people can flip around between the integration/disintegration points quite a lot, even within one day. Some people stay on one or the other for long periods of time. (Some 3s become very 9like and passive for great stretches, for example.) Some 8s look almost like an average 2 a lot of the time, but can take on some of the "bad" 8 characteristics of 8's occasionally anyway, when in the right situation. I just think there's quite a bit of room for movement which is not as easily defined as "this person is at this level".

Health and unhealth are blurry lines in life. I think a lot of pretty detrimental behavior is not only tolerated, but encouraged socially in this world. How to define what is healthy? Social maladjustment? Internal discomfort? Something else? Some really socially maladjusted people have done great things in this world. Sometimes it's the society that's sick. Sometimes a person's sickness can be meaningful to a person, and to other people. One would hope that something good could come out of sickness. I guess what I'm getting at is a distinction between what is sick for an individual and what is sick in the view of a society.

I tend to view the integration/disintegration as something which is at is base, personal, and only secondarily as social. Health/unhealth are often defined socially. I think it's important to consider that.

Anyway, you're free to have your own view! All I can say is, watch how real people really act, and don't only stick to the books. The book is a guideline, but if it doesn't fit life- throw that part out.

I still feel like there's something I'm missing about the enneagram. I'm not sure what it is.
We're all learning here.

 

[Skysteel]

The wide range of interpretation which is still correct is what I also love about the enneagram. But the point I was trying to make is that to have a card which says "unhealthy" might be too specific, and not allow enough room for interpretation.

An 'Unhealthy E1' card could represent both the negative effects of an Unhealthy E1 and the 'way-out' of such Unhealthy behaviour. Sort of like the Tower represents ruin and destruction but also breakthrough and an end to stagnation.

I really do think that health/unheath is a seperate thing from integration/disintegration. Also, that going to one's integration point can help one to achieve health, and not only that one just goes to the integration point when one is healthy in other ways.

Well, take E1 as an example. E1s are, by definition, self-controlled and perfectionistic. What happens when one becomes 'Healthy' i.e. when one lets go of some of the negative aspects of self-control (self-denial) and perfectionism (obsession)? One naturally becomes more spontaneous, life-affirming and joyous. Which Enneagram Point represents spontaneity, life-affirmation and joy? E7, the Point that just happens to lie in E1's Direction of Integration. A similar structure exists for each Type - E2s become more emotionally honest and self-nurturing when Healthy, symbolised by E4; E3s become more co-operative and committed to structures greater than themselves when Healthy, symbolised by E6, etc. This is why I think one moves in ones Direction of Integration when one becomes Healthy, not the other way around.

4 is 1's disnintegration point. Four-style depression is something which they will always will be prone to- it is what they retreat to when under stress. They do not have to become suicidal because of it, and it may have little to do with becoming punitive and intolerant. Being punitive, critical and intolerant is something which many socially well adjusted 1's (who will probably never commit suicide) do as a matter of course.

Of course - no Type will become suicidal at anything other than very low Levels (8 or 9, I think). However, E1s are prone to clinical depression (an E4 trait) because they move to E4 under increased stress.

Anger is part of their [E1s'] nature, as a result of their desire for discernment and perfectionism. They are hardest on themselves. Some 1's are almost never punitive toward others, yet become depressed anyway and may even commit suicide.

Really? I doubt an E1 would commit suicide without first becoming intolerant and highly critical of others.

I don't think anyone spontaneously becomes anything.
External circumstances and internal drives and adjustments lead to the integration.
I really think that even acting "as if" (say, a 5 just trying to act more like an 8) can at times help people to be more integrated, and probably more healthy.

I agree, consciously acting like the Type in ones Direction of Integration can be beneficial - however, it is very hard to do this unless one is already Healthy.

I have also seen that some people, when they start going more toward their integration point, will appear to be acting extremely or in an unbalanced way by others. However, for their own psyche, they are coming to achieve integration.

Personally, I have not seen this.

I often find that some people can flip around between the integration/disintegration points quite a lot, even within one day. Some people stay on one or the other for long periods of time. (Some 3s become very 9like and passive for great stretches, for example.) Some 8s look almost like an average 2 a lot of the time, but can take on some of the "bad" 8 characteristics of 8's occasionally anyway, when in the right situation. I just think there's quite a bit of room for movement which is not as easily defined as "this person is at this level".

According to Enneagram Theory, one can also 'act-out' as another specific Type in non-Unhealthy ways, but only in very familiar environments. This is called ones 'Security Point', which happens to be the same as the Type in ones Direction of Integration. For example, E1s are typically perfectionistic and have high-morals. However, in a very familiar setting (with family or close friends, for example) an E1 may 'give themself permission' to act like an E7 - be less concerned with perfection, act more silly, be more openly aggressive/sexual, and so forth. Basically, the Type in ones Direction of Integration is ones 'Shadow Side' or 'repressed traits', accessed only by conscious effort to improve psychologically (Integration) or occasionally be 'testing it out' in familiar settings (moving to ones Security Point).

Health and unhealth are blurry lines in life. I think a lot of pretty detrimental behavior is not only tolerated, but encouraged socially in this world. How to define what is healthy? Social maladjustment? Internal discomfort? Something else? Some really socially maladjusted people have done great things in this world. Sometimes it's the society that's sick. Sometimes a person's sickness can be meaningful to a person, and to other people. One would hope that something good could come out of sickness. I guess what I'm getting at is a distinction between what is sick for an individual and what is sick in the view of a society.

The Enneagram defines 'Healthy' as psychologically capable (able to access many different potentials) and 'Unhealthy' as fixated (approaching the world with only one mindset, leading to delusions and disorders).

I tend to view the integration/disintegration as something which is at is base, personal, and only secondarily as social. Health/unhealth are often defined socially. I think it's important to consider that.

Health/Unhealth in the Enneagram are not defined socially.

Anyway, you're free to your own view! All I can say is, watch how real people really act, and don't only stick to the books. The book is a guideline, but if it doesn't fit life- throw that part out.

...it all fits.
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[The Dreamer]

Okay. I've read all the books, and am aware of the theories.

Here are the points I'm making which diverge from the theories.

Some aspects of type may be considered unhealthy, and have nothing to do with the stress-disintegration/security-integration points. 1's and anger, for instance. This can be considered socially and personally unhealthy. This anger may have little to do with the dynamics of going to 7 or to 4.

My dad is a 1, and I've known many of them. Many are almost never punitive toward others, but very hard on themselves. Some are very depressive. Your point that a 1 probably would never commit suicide without becoming intolerant and critical of others is a good one, but I believe that it would be possible- if the person were an introvert, and had had a particular kind of childhood, and had adopted a particular kind of belief system.
Of course, this goes to my point that theory should be backed up with evidence. The only way we could test this is by watching how a lot of real 1's act. There will always be differences between what the majority of people of any one type will do, and what a minority of them will do.

I never implied that a person can become more healthy by going to their disintegration-stress point. Only that going to the integration point is not only a matter of health=integration, as if one is floating downstream. There can be bumps along the way, and moving forward and backward.
I think that the point which we discussed earlier about the difference between 3-6-9 and the other numbers is important here- it may be that there is more "flow" with 3-6-9 and more flipping around with the other numbers. I see the flipping around between integration/disintegration often in those of the hexad numbers, and come to think of it, I've never seen it in those of the 3-6-9.

I really think that the whole idea of numbered levels of health has nothing to do with the enneagram itself, but was something which Riso or Hudson came up with. Integration-security/disintegration-stress, I accept as part of the enneagram, and as fitting with reality as I have observed it. But the labeling of "levels of health" I think is unwarranted, and I see it leading to more confusion than clarity. I have not seen the human world acting like this.

Regarding health-unhealth being defined socially- I return to my point about people going to their integration point occasionally being seen as unbalanced. My mother is a 4, and when she was first integrating some of her 1 characteristics, some saw her as excessively authoritarian. My father is a 1, and when at times he is able to relax and act more sevenish- the people around him tend to be uncomfortable with that. The social is part of everything, and cannot be separated from theories about the enneagram.

Now, you can accept or make up any theory you want about it. I'm not going to debate points of theory with you, because I know all of the theories- and really the only point is, what do people really do, and what are they really like. All I can say in the end is that I have observed many people; and that some parts of the book which you are speaking of do not fit with my observations. You are free to make your own observations.

 

[Moongold]

It sounds as though enneagrams are the framework through which some of you live and understand the world. In this way the enneagram seems very rich. I did the test on the link provided by Dreamer and came up as a 5, but with 4 and 7 pnly one point behind. I could identify with characteristics of all three types.

I am an INFP in Myers Briggs but I could also be an INTP, the score is so close. I'e found Myers Briggs useful in helping understand difference. Some people do think so very differently and "live" in the world so very differently. I am also a Sagittarian, with a Pisces Moon. One of the attractions of the MBTI for me has been that it has only ever claimed to indicate preference. You can be a basic type but might appear to be something else because situations require you to act in certain ways. MBTI acknowledges that a person may have a preference to act in a certain way but can accommodate other situations if circumstances require this. I hear you saying that this does not apply with the enneagram.

If the enneagram is based on motivation, is not motivation one of the most changeable of things?

Forgive me if my questions are naive. I know little about the enneagram.

 

[Skysteel]

Some aspects of type may be considered unhealthy, and have nothing to do with the stress-disintegration/security-integration points. 1's and anger, for instance. This can be considered socially and personally unhealthy. This anger may have little to do with the dynamics of going to 7 or to 4.

Strictly speaking, that doesn't diverge from the theories at all - the theories state that one only moves to the Type in ones Direction of Disintegraiton under increased stress, when ones primary defenses are failing. For example, Average E1s get angry and critical about others, but when others ignore them then E1s feel alienated and depressive, like Average E4s.

I never implied that a person can become more healthy by going to their disintegration-stress point.

Neither did I...I think...?
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Only that going to the integration point is not only a matter of health=integration, as if one is floating downstream. There can be bumps along the way, and moving forward and backward.

Like I said, one can 'act-out' in ones Direction of Integration - E1s can behave like E7s sometimes, even when not Healthy. However, this is not Integration, it is merely a form of 'acting out' or 'role-playing'.

I think that the point which we discussed earlier about the difference between 3-6-9 and the other numbers is important here- it may be that there is more "flow" with 3-6-9 and more flipping around with the other numbers. I see the flipping around between integration/disintegration often in those of the hexad numbers, and come to think of it, I've never seen it in those of the 3-6-9.

Riso and Hudson say that Types 3-6-9 Integrate/Disintegrate in a 'revolutionary' way - the change is dramatic yet less likely to happen. In contrast, the other six Types Integrate/Disintegrate in an 'evolutionary' way - the change is less dramatic by more natural and more likely to happen. I never totally agreed with that, but perhaps this is what you are experiencing?

I really think that the whole idea of numbered levels of health has nothing to do with the enneagram itself, but was something which Riso or Hudson came up with. Integration-security/disintegration-stress, I accept as part of the enneagram, and as fitting with reality as I have observed it. But the labeling of "levels of health" I think is unwarranted, and I see it leading to more confusion than clarity. I have not the human world acting like this.

The specific number and forms of the Levels are arbitrary, but the sentiment is the same - within each Type, there are 'good' traits and their are 'bad' traits. All Riso and Hudson have done is order them in terms of psychological health and capacity.

Regarding health-unhealth being defined socially- I return to my point about people going to their integration point occasionally being seen as unbalanced. My mother is a 4, and when she was first integrating some of her 1 characteristics, some saw her as excessively authoritarian. My father is a 1, and when at times he is able to relax and act more sevenish- the people around him tend to be uncomfortable with that. The social is part of everything, and cannot be separated from theories about the enneagram.

Integrated E4s at E1 are responsible, mature and accepting of the faults others, not excessively authoritarian. An authoritarian E1 is not an Integrated individual; Integration is a state of being psychologically free, and psychologically free people see no need to be authoritarian. I propose that your mother was moving to her 'Security Point', just as your father was moving to his 'Security Point' - like I said, at times when an individual feels safe and relaxed (typically with family and close friends), one may behave like the Type in his or her Direction of Integration but not in a specifically Healthy way. This is not the same as Integration.

To use myself as an example - I am an E6, and as such I worry a lot, 'scan' my environment for potential dangers and try to do what is expected of me. This is true at school, at work and socially. However, with my family, I space-out, procrastinate terribley and am generally lazy - I act like an Average E9. This generally annoys my family. This is not Integration, it is me moving to my Security Point because I am relaxed and feel secure. Integration is a conscious effort to overcome the ego; moving to my security point is my ego saying:

"Hey, you're with 'safe people', so there's no need to keep up the usual defenses."

However, if there's a family argument, or I sense some tension in the family environment, I rapidly revert to my typical E6 nature ("I only did what you told me to do!").
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If the enneagram is based on motivation, is not motivation one of the most changeable of things?

Surface motivations, yes; deep, underlying motivations, no.
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