The Enneagram and the Tarot

[The Dreamer]

Oh yeah.

 

[purple_scorp]

I almost started to give an explanation in my original post, but it is a complex system, and not simply explained…….<snip>…… I have studied the enneagram for about eight years, and it is a huge part of my thinking in all of my interactions with people.

So that I don’t come off as a total ignoramus, I feel that I should clarify some of my statements in my previous post. (How 3-like, lol.) I posted in a hurry and The Dreamer, you are right, it is a complex system and it certainly deserved more of my energy when submitting my original post. It’s just that I got excited because I saw a post on a system that I find very interesting and didn’t have much time, so I hurriedly replied.

Firstly, I am still learning. I haven’t studied the Enneagram for years but I have read a couple of books on them and had several discussions with a friend who had studied them as part of her training to be a nun. (Yeah, I know, weird hey???)

I believe that the most accurate way of finding out one's own type is to read the descriptions of the type dynamics. Most people can instantly recognize their own type (threes sometimes are an exception to that- because of the dynamics of their type, they are more "changeable" as purple scorp alluded to.)……<snip>…… Another reason is that 3's, who I mentioned before as being changeable, tend to "become" for others whatever others want them to be, or whatever is the most efficatious at the moment for achieving their goals. If you really are a 3, it might be hard for you to know what you are really like since you would be taking on other personae regularly possibly without really realizing it.

It's commonly agreed that Types 3, 6 and 9 typically have the greatest trouble identifying themselves because their identities are more fluid than the other Types (their identities depend more on the external environment). Also, I agree with Dreamer that online tests are only partially useful; I finally settled on my Type after discussing it with people who knew me well.

I did the test on the site which put me as a type 3. I don't see myself like this.

Like Sue, I did not think of myself as being a 3 and I actually found it hard to categorise mysElf but very easy to categorise everybody else. That is because every enneagram type has its negative traits and while we readily identify with the positive traits of the type, we are more reluctant to admit that we possess those negative traits. So, I could not see that I displayed, or was not ready to admit to, the manipulation and chameleon aspects of the 3. My friend, however, was quick to type me as a 3, and provide numerous examples of both the negative and positive traits that I displayed.

Also, ones Basic Type doesn't change - if you were a Type 3 four years ago, you should still be a Type 3.

I do not believe that people change type…….<snip>….. Within the enneagram system there is a dynamic of "integration" and "disintegration" by which the types are related- when a person of each type becomes more balanced, they take on more of the characteristics of their integration point (the integration point of 3 is 6). When a person of each type is under stress, they show characteristics like their disintegration point (the disintegration point of 3 is 9).

Ah.......I believe that I have integrated some of the positive traits of the 6. I thought it was actually possible to move to your integrated and disintegrated types. That's what I meant when I said I'd hopefully evolved.

Also, the way we see oursElf does change. We learn, grow, and develop over time. What if when you first categorised yoursElf you are wrong because you see yoursElf differently to what you see at another time? That's why it's beneficial to have a close friend categorise you. It removes the personal bias.

Added nuance is provided by the wing, which is what the w in 3w4 stands for. There are two numbers to the side of each number, and each person tends to favor one of those two as their secondary favored motivational type. For This adds flavor and a kind of emotional undertow to their basic type. The wing does not change, everyone tends to favor only one wing, and only the numbers to either side of each number can be called that number's wing.

Wings can mislead you when you are first categorising your own type. I thought for a while I was a 4 but when I read and re-read the full explanation of types, and after discussion with my friend, it was obvious I was a 3w4.

I suspect that everyone is a mix of all types, as you say, and also changing circumstances would affect how one behaves.

One reason why people often think they identify with all of the types is that they falsely associate a few keywords which were found in a test with what the types are really like.

Well, I think I know where Sue is coming from. I’ve done some work with shadow sides and, we do have parts of other people in oursElf. Quite often the things that you dislike or admire in another person are simply parts of yoursElf that you haven’t yet accepted and/or integrated.

In one of the Enneagram books that I read, they had a short questionnaire and then full chapters dedicated to each type. On reading the questionnaire (which I expect is like completing the questionnaire on a website) it did seem as though I contained a small part of every type. However, it only really becomes clear when you read the full chapter on the type.

Yay! (6w5)As I said, I'm a Tarot newbie; some parts of the Tarot make sense to me, some parts don't. I 'get' the Major Arcana (to some extent), but the Minor Arcana is more cryptic...the Court Cards, especially, typically elude me.

Is this because you are using a traditional style Tarot deck like Rider/Waite??? I am wondering how you’d go with a deck like Osho Zen Tarot?

Hey, purple_scorp.
- I never really had much faith in Astrology...I'm a Sagittarius Sun with Gemini Moon, yet I am not an Enneagram Type 7 (which I believe fits with Sagittarians) and I am not even a Type 3 or a Type 8 (Fire Types) - Type 6 seems to be a balance between Earth and Air, which I suppose fits with Gemini...heh. I like to over-analyse.
-

I like to over-analyse too. I wonder where Virgo is in your chart???

Have you ever studied Lexigrams? I have the words “analyse” and “detail” in my name .

Well, astrology is a very complex system too. I know more about astrology than Enneagrams, but I have so much more to learn. You need to take into consideration the position of all of the planets at your birth, and the houses they sit in, and the sign that the house occupies, and the angles between the planets. Even the empty houses/signs mean something.

It would be interesting to discuss Enneagrams and Astrology with somebody who has intimately studied both systems to see which planet/house position rules which Enneagram type. Though, as I stated in my original post, there does seem to be some shared characteristic traits between my sun sign and my type. But then, I am very Scorpion (with the Sun and three other planets in that sign). My ex-hubby is a Sag (but from memory was a Enneagram type 9). In his case, and maybe in yours, there could be other factors that outweigh the sun sign in the natal chart???

If you're serious about getting a book about the Enneagram, I would recommend Riso and Hudson's 'Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery (Revised Edition)'.

Skysteel, this sounds like an awesome book. Sounds as though it takes you on a bit of a journey??? I must say that I wasn't particularly impressed by "The Enneagram" by Helen Palmer. Luckily, it wasn’t the first book I’d read on the subject.

purple_scorp

 

[Skysteel]

Hi again, purple_scorp.

Ah.......I believe that I have integrated some of the positive traits of the 6. I thought it was actually possible to move to your integrated and disintegrated types. That's what I meant when I said I'd hopefully evolved.

Ones Type does not actually 'move' - an Integrated E3 is still, fundamentally, an E3, but an E3 who has learned (and is willing) to access the positive qualities of E6, which is very beneficial. All E3s fear greatly being worthless and of being rejected; E3s at E6 still have that Basic Fear, but realise that by being commited to others outside themselves that nothing they do is worthless, and that all they need to do to avoid rejection is choose to take part in something greater than themselves.

Also, the way we see oursElf does change. We learn, grow, and develop over time. What if when you first categorised yoursElf you are wrong because you see yoursElf differently to what you see at another time? That's why it's beneficial to have a close friend categorise you. It removes the personal bias.

Actually, according to the Enneagram, ones self-image is pretty much constant (excluding Level of Health) - E1s typically see themselves as 'good', E2s typically see themselves as 'loving', E4s typically see themselves as 'unique'...again, though, E3s have very fluid identities; they literally see themselves as they want to be seen.

Is this because you are using a traditional style Tarot deck like Rider/Waite??? I am wondering how you’d go with a deck like Osho Zen Tarot?

My inner conversation went something like this:

- Well, you can either use the traditional deck or the flashy deck...you don't want the flashy one, because that's style-over-substance.
- But the Tarot is supposed to be about personal significance and aesthetics, though.
- Shut up; you'll never learn the true meanings if you're subjective about them.
- Haven't I had this kind of conversation before?
- No.
- Oh well. I suppose the Rider-Waite deck will be familiar to others...
- Exactly. It's a safe choice.
- Right. So I'll take the traditional Rider-Waite deck.
- Yes.

I regret talking to myself. I knew perfectly well I needed an 'artistic' deck, not a 'classical' deck.

I like to over-analyse too. I wonder where Virgo is in your chart???

Um...it's at the top of my horoscope, because my Ascendant is Sagitarrius. Also, no hevenly bodies are in Virgo. Which means...?

Have you ever studied Lexigrams?

Nope, but I'll have a look.
-

It would be interesting to discuss Enneagrams and Astrology with somebody who has intimately studied both systems to see which planet/house position rules which Enneagram type.

Here's a link that might interest you:

Enneagram Planets

Skysteel, this sounds like an awesome book. Sounds as though it takes you on a bit of a journey??? I must say that I wasn't particularly impressed by "The Enneagram" by Helen Palmer. Luckily, it wasn’t the first book I’d read on the subject.

It's my Bible.
-

No, really, I just deeply connected with the book - it might be a bit deep and heavy for some people, but I think it's just the right balance between practical psychology and spiritual guidance. There is another book by Riso and Hudson, 'The Wisdom of the Enneagram', which I hear is more 'spiritual', but I have never read that, so I cannot comment objectively - I still think the best introductory book to the Enneagram is 'Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery'. It's so much more than just an introduction, though! It's a complete pardigm shift...

 

[psychic sue]

Purp_Scorp says:-

Well, I think I know where Sue is coming from. I’ve done some work with shadow sides and, we do have parts of other people in oursElf. Quite often the things that you dislike or admire in another person are simply parts of yoursElf that you haven’t yet accepted and/or integrated.

This reminds me of something my son said to me:- He uttered the dreaded words "Mom, you are SOOOO Like nan". AHHHHG -we really do turn into our mothers !

 

[Skysteel]

Using my limited knowledge of the Tarot (input is welcome):

O. THE FOOL - Naivety, Beginning, Undifferentiated (E9)
I. THE MAGICIAN - Conscious Effort, Efficiency, Extroverstion (3w4)
II. THE HIGH PRIESTESS - Subconscious Forces, Insight, Introversion (4w3)
III. THE EMPRESS - Creation, Fertility, 'Mother Figure' (E2)
IV. THE EMPEROR - Authority, Discipline, 'Father Figure' (E8)
V. THE HIEROPHANT - Structure, Community, Institutions (E6)
VI. LOVERS - Attraction, Connection, Self-Sacrifice (E2)
VII. THE CHARIOT - Triumph, Victory, Self-Control (1w9)
VIII. STRENGTH - Determination, Self-Possession, Self-Restraint (9w8)
IX. THE HERMIT - Withdrawl, Analysis, Isolation (5w6)
X. THE WHEEL OF FORTUNE - Joy, Luck, Windfalls (E7)
XI. JUSTICE - Compromise, Discernment, Division (1w2)
XII. THE HANGED MAN - Introspection, Reflection, Release (4w5)
XIII. DEATH - Ineveitability, Endings, Initiation (5w4)
XIV. TEMPERANCE - Idealism, Harmony, Unity (9w1)
XV. THE DEVIL - Canality, Superficiality, Over-indulgence (7w8)
XVI. THE TOWER - Devestation, Collapse, Sudden Release (E8)
XVII. THE STAR - Generosity, Renewal, Hope (E7)
XVIII. THE MOON - Irrationality, Dreams, Subjectivity (E4)
XIX. THE SUN - Rationality, Reality, Objectivity (E1)
XX. JUDGEMENT - Absolution, Honesty, Forgiveness (E4)
XXI. THE WORLD - Integration, Completeness, Wholeness (All Types?)

 

[The Dreamer]

I can see most of those correlations to some degree. I believe that many cards can apply to more than one type at different times, as the types have many aspects.

I strongly disagree with "Judgement- absolution, honesty, forgiveness" for type 4, though. Maybe the most integrated 4 on the planet might approach those, but for all the others it would be closer to the complete opposite.

Different cards would apply to different times of integration, and different courses people would take.

 

[Skysteel]

I can see most of those correlations to some degree. I believe that many cards can apply to more than one type at different times, as the types have many aspects.

You're probably right.

I strongly disagree with "Judgement- absolution, honesty, forgiveness" for type 4, though. Maybe the most integrated 4 on the planet might approach those, but for all the others it would be closer to the complete opposite.

I completely agree - I was actually going to assign E1 to Judgement, but then I thought very Healthy E4s are more suited; of course, very healthy E4s often are E1s. I suppose Judgement represents E4s Integration; Average/Unhealthy E4s are certainly not forgiving or honest about judging people (although they are honest about themselves).

 

[The Dreamer]

Also, the High Priestess would apply more to 4w5 than 4w3.

Star for 7 and Moon for 4 I think strongly apply.

There could be differences between the "ideal"s of type and types as they are lived. Different cards would apply to those.

 

[The Dreamer]

I completely agree - I was actually going to assign E1 to Judgement, but then I thought very Healthy E4s are more suited; of course, very healthy E4s often are E1s. I suppose Judgement represents E4s Integration; Average/Unhealthy E4s are certainly not forgiving or honest about judging people (although they are honest about themselves).

I wouldn't even say they're honest about themselves.

And by saying "very healthy 4s are 1s" you mean metaphorically, of course; since we know that people do not change type.

Just to be clear.

 

[The Dreamer]

The World= The Enneagram

Or, the type's ideal of integration.

Say, in a spread, there could be a range of cards referring to the problems of integration ending in one of the more "ideal" cards for that type, along with The World.

There could be a spread where the pitfalls of disintegration point are addressed, along with what needs to be integrated.