A Most Genuine & Authentic Fake 15th Century Method!

[Sherryl]

Before going out this evening, I asked five Yes/No Questions that could be quickly verified. I got a very definite NO for all five (the significators were as far apart as possible in most readings). But this spread is weighed toward a "no" answer since there are eight places designated for receiving a "yes" and twelve for "no".

I can't bring myself to shuffle Place's Ferrarese deck (Dick deck??) so I used the soprafino.

All the readings gave me the wrong answer except one. In the spread with the right answer, the significators were closer together than any of the others, but still not touching.

I found that devising an appropriate significator was the trickiest part. I used the Empress to designate myself in all the readings since they all involved something I wanted to get or experience.

Here's a breakdown of my spreads. Can anyone think of a better significator that the one I picked?

Question: Will I run into anyone I know this evening?
Significators: Empress and Sun - Me coming together happily with some other people.
Answer: No.
Outcome: Correct answer. I didn't see a soul I know.

Question: Will Herb call me this evening?
Significators: Empress and Emperor – me communicating with my partner.
Answer: No
Outcome: He called me an hour after I did the reading.

Question: Will the DVD I want be at Borders?
Significators: Empress and Lovers - Me finding pleasure at the bookstore.
Answer: No
Outcome: I easily found what I wanted.

Question: Will I find a quiet spot at the coffee shop?
Significators: Empress and Papesse – me reading quietly in the coffee shop.
Answer: No
Outcome: I found my favorite table. Most of the patrons were also reading quietly.

Question: Will either the Balloon Man or the Snake Man be at their usual spot at the entrance to the Paseo?
Significators: Empress and Bagatto – me encountering street performers.
Answer: No
Outcome: They were both there (which surprised me since I got a late start and most of the tourists they depend on for tips were already gone).

Why such a dismal track record? Here's some possible theories:

1. It's just me. I've experimented before with keeping track of how I do on fortune telling questions, and I don't do better than chance. I've never had luck doing yes/no or timing questions.

2. It's just Tarot. Very few people are successful with yes/no questions. Perhaps Tarot is not meant for this type of question.

3. These were trivial questions so the Tarot was not cooperating.

4. I picked the wrong significators. Perhaps it's like horary astrology, where if you pick the wrong planet as the significator of the question you're screwed because everything you say about the chart is going to be irrelevant. But I don't think it should matter which cards you pick as the significator, as long as you hold the intent in your mind. Which leads to….

5. Doing five readings in quick succession muddied things because I didn't have the significators fixed in my mind clearly enough. Since I really didn't care about the outcome of these situations, there was no emotional or spiritual energy behind my requests, and I was not able to elicit a meaningful response.

Thoughts anyone?

Sherryl

 

[Melanchollic]

Replies in Black!!

Before going out this evening, I asked five Yes/No Questions that could be quickly verified. I got a very definite NO for all five (the significators were as far apart as possible in most readings). But this spread is weighed toward a "no" answer since there are eight places designated for receiving a "yes" and twelve for "no".

I doesn't have to be. I've sometime included a gradation zone with a middle area of 'maybe's'.

I can't bring myself to shuffle Place's Ferrarese deck (Dick deck??) so I used the soprafino.

All the readings gave me the wrong answer except one. In the spread with the right answer, the significators were closer together than any of the others, but still not touching.

I found that devising an appropriate significator was the trickiest part. I used the Empress to designate myself in all the readings since they all involved something I wanted to get or experience.

This is expected as the 'Papi' were often seen as signifying people, as were the courts. I've tried to move toward a more 'lyrical' way to translate everyday life into 15th century allegories.

Here's a breakdown of my spreads. Can anyone think of a better significator that the one I picked?

Question: Will I run into anyone I know this evening?
Significators: Empress and Sun - Me coming together happily with some other people.
Answer: No.
Outcome: Correct answer. I didn't see a soul I know.

I like Love and Fortune (as usual). The chance of social interaction.

Question: Will Herb call me this evening?
Significators: Empress and Emperor – me communicating with my partner.
Answer: No
Outcome: He called me an hour after I did the reading.

Again, Love and Fortune.

Question: Will the DVD I want be at Borders?
Significators: Empress and Lovers - Me finding pleasure at the bookstore.
Answer: No
Outcome: I easily found what I wanted.

I'd say Fortune and The Chariot. Will you have the opportunity to succeed in your task? Surly the main pleasure you'll get from your DVD will be in its viewing, not it's acquisition.

Question: Will I find a quiet spot at the coffee shop?
Significators: Empress and Papesse – me reading quietly in the coffee shop.
Answer: No
Outcome: I found my favorite table. Most of the patrons were also reading quietly.

Again, you're asking about if you'll have an opportunity for a type of pleasure, so Love and Fortune. I might also consider this to be an opportunity for "reflection", Luna meeting Fortuna!

Question: Will either the Balloon Man or the Snake Man be at their usual spot at the entrance to the Paseo?
Significators: Empress and Bagatto – me encountering street performers.
Answer: No
Outcome: They were both there (which surprised me since I got a late start and most of the tourists they depend on for tips were already gone).

Interesting one. I tend at see the Bagatto's main function in the trumps narrative arc as a personification of Deception, though I can't deny he's a street entertainer. Again, you're asking about "the chance" of something happening, which is Fortune's realm. I guess that's why they call this Fortune's Telling! Juggler and Fortune? What was your motivation business or pleasure? If Pleasure... you know the drill. If business, you could use the Chariot with Fortune. Will you have opportunity to succeed in your task?

Why such a dismal track record? Here's some possible theories:

1. It's just me. I've experimented before with keeping track of how I do on fortune telling questions, and I don't do better than chance. I've never had luck doing yes/no or timing questions.

2. It's just Tarot. Very few people are successful with yes/no questions. Perhaps Tarot is not meant for this type of question.

3. These were trivial questions so the Tarot was not cooperating.

4. I picked the wrong significators. Perhaps it's like horary astrology, where if you pick the wrong planet as the significator of the question you're screwed because everything you say about the chart is going to be irrelevant. But I don't think it should matter which cards you pick as the significator, as long as you hold the intent in your mind. Which leads to….

5. Doing five readings in quick succession muddied things because I didn't have the significators fixed in my mind clearly enough. Since I really didn't care about the outcome of these situations, there was no emotional or spiritual energy behind my requests, and I was not able to elicit a meaningful response.

Thoughts anyone?

You bring up some interesting ideas. I don't know your 'worldview' on these matters, but let's start with the position that divination is an actual reality. Kris Hadar's methods seem to assume they are. One of the first things he teaches in his TdM reading course is you can't read for yourself. The cards won't work! If divination were a reality, would this be probable or improbable? I've found from my personal experience that in straight up predictive divination with cards, the percentage of 'hits' is significantly higher when I read for others. Why? I don't know.

Traditional astrologer Lee Lehman writes about what sort of conditions would be necessary for predictive divination to work. She talks about the emotional energies, the need to know, that would be necessary to create enough 'psychic charge' to trigger a 'synchronized event', meaning getting a sign via some method that could correctly be interpreted as being revealing of some seemingly unrelated event, like Venus' position telling us something about our love life. This seems to be saying the same thing as you. Trivial matters won't cut it. I believe William Lilly took the opposite position and said the triviality of the question didn't matter so much in Horary. The planets would still go their course. Tarot of course is an altogether different beast. I'm also reminded of how intense devotions and/or austere ascetic practices like fasting were considered necessary by ancient Pagan seerers to "pierce the veil", as they say. Obviously few of us are going to fast for week whilst praying to Apollo every time we want to read a friends fortune.

You, make an interesting point that Tarot may have not been meant for these sorts of yes/no/when type questions. This is certain. We know Tarot was meant to be a card game. The 50 billion dollar question is can we accurately predict the future with these damn cards!? Is predictive divination possible by any means?

Before we answer, we should ask ourselves something else first. Does it matter? My main interest in the cards is historical, but I tell fortunes anyway. If I was certain that all my predictions were always and completely wrong, I would still tell fortunes. Why? It's fun. I enjoy it. I like making new methods. People enjoy it, even if they don't believe a word of it. It's a great way to socialize. I can get half the girls at a bar around my table just by shouting, "Okay everybody, I'm gonna read YOUR tarot cards! Who wants to see their future!?"

Okay! So, can we accurately predict the future with Tarot cards? The answer of course is "No"....




and "Yes."




Wanna hit me yet?




Obviously, any predictive method, even flipping a coin is going to work about 50% of the time. So, if you're asking if I think we can accurately predict the future 100% of the time, the answer of course is 'no'. If someone out there is doing it, please step forward now!! We'd love to know the secret!

"So what are we doing here, Mel?"

Now, I know fully well that if presented with 10 ways to roast a chicken, one will inevitably be the best. I also know that if you take that best method for roasting Clucky, and tinker with it, over time you will improve it. This is true for cleaning window screens, organizing your kitchen cabinets, and getting six-pack abs. There is always a best way to do something. Always.

So, what we are attempting to do here I believe is to find the best way to toss a coin. How can we push 50/50 over to 48/52. then to 42/58. I don't believe in fairies, or the so-called "Angel of the Tarot", but I do believe in the power of technique, and a good system. Now I'm not talking about methods like my 'Conundrum', which are not predictive methods in the proper sense of the word. I'm talking about the unlikely and unreasonable premise that one method of random prediction can, and will in fact be slightly more accurate than another, even if we are confining ourselves to systems for tarot cards.

Oddly, the reality seems to be, if we carry on as if divination is real, even if its not, and build methodologies around that assumption, we actually improve our 'hit' percentage, in my experience. Obviously if we are starting with a wonky system that doesn't have the tools and methods to get accurate predictions, even if angels were guiding the cards, how could we expect it to work without the angels?

Yes, I'm a nut... but I'm a cute nut!



Sherryl

 

[Rosanne]

I have read through what you have said and rather than quoting it......
I have moved from telling the future, because mainly I have no way of corroborating whether I was right or wrong (except for myself- I often went positive for myself with what I wanted). That is the problem. I can count on both hands the times I have been right for other people that I knew was right. Normally they did not come back to inform me.
Examples would be "When will I meet my Partner?" Well 6 years is a long time to cast.
I also think, this way, the significators are the important thing. I do not think, I have got this sussed. The Lovers is obvious- but other questions not so.
I also think, for me, that multiple draws lacks concentration. I think with this pattern, I can answer the question straight away- then extend the reading as I have always done.
I do not know the stats of Chance versus actual Fortune Telling, and really I do not think we will ever know without stalking the querent for the later facts.
I believe we tell people what is true at that moment- but what is true for the future...I do not know now.
All I can do is ask a question daily- note the results and after a while see how accurate I am. I like the simplicity- but as for accuracy??????
I have asked 3 questions that I will know within the month, if that is greater than chance, I have no idea.
I liked your experiment though
For myself, I think Tarot works best as a consulting as to what to Do or Not Do- therefore guidance. I think I prefer that than an answer that shows it is all done and dusted, so to speak.
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

Crossed post with Melanchollic.
Yes I think I need the significators list........

~Rosanne

 

[Bernice]

Rosanne: Yes I think I need the significators list........

Same here. I had a question of the yes/no/maybe sort: "Will I ever recieve the desired thing"" (an object, a 'thing').

After dithering around I chose Lover as the Signifcator (meeting with desired thing). And Chariot as Success/Victory.

The Spread:
Significator in bottom row, Chariot vertically above in top row = highly probable.

BUT they wern't adjacent. Curiosity got the better of me so I turned up the intervening card = Pope. (naughty - flouting the Rule of Simplicity). This caused me to think that someone else would intervene at some point, and the 'thing' would come by way of this intervention.

Thinking now that I should have employed Fortune.......


Bee

 

[Melanchollic]

Same here. I had a question of the yes/no/maybe sort: "Will I ever recieve the desired thing"" (an object, a 'thing').

After dithering around I chose Lover as the Signifcator (meeting with desired thing). And Chariot as Success/Victory.

Bee, was this something you were expecting to come, like a posted parcel?

 

[Bernice]

Mel: Bee, was this something you were expecting to come, like a posted parcel?

Yes Mel. But it's not been found, let alone posted!

Bee x

 

[Melanchollic]

Yes Mel. But it's not been found, let alone posted!

Bee x

Excellent! Not that you've lost a package, but I've yet to encounter a question about lost objects with this method. Let's brain storm up the best significator, or at least have good argument about it!

 

[Melanchollic]

I've been toying with the idea of the Empress as Object. Why, you ask?
I believe the original allegory of II & III is Church & State. We can say the Papessa is the spiritual body of the realm, and by extension our spiritual body (mental states, spiritual awareness, etc.). The Empress is the physical body of the realm, and by extension, our physical body (Health, Fitness, etc.). Could we extend her to physical objects in general?? Anybody buying it??

 

[Bernice]

Excellent! Not that you've lost a package, but I've yet to encounter a question about lost objects with this method. Let's brain storm up the best significator, or at least have good argument about it!

Oh yes! Now we can hone up on Significators.

But as Sherryl (somewhere) mentioned, it does seem that Fortune as co-significator might cover many queries.....

Significators for Lost Things:

Lost my glasses, where are they? Lack of vision, clarity; bu**erd with out 'em: Juggler/illusion/distortion?

thinking......


Bee