Nudity in Tarot.

[bonebeach]

As I said my earlier posts, I believe that the negative emotions of some people on nudity in good taste on tarot decks or media have nothing to do with the images themselves, but it is in the psychology of the person, affected by social religious educational family and personal back ground and experiences i.e. it's their emotional judgement, taste or problems.

I agree with this. I also love "they are what we are in reality anyway" about nudity.

I don't own any decks with a lot of nudity, but I think that's just because I haven't stumbled across one with the right kind of nudity. The Serpentfire has some nudity and I think it's gorgeous. I think it's done tastefully there, more arthouse or fashion than titillation, but I wouldn't mind a nude deck done quite tastelessly, if it was *my* kind of tasteless. It's all very subjective.

And while clothes do offer symbolism, you can put a naked person in a very elaborate symbolic hat and they are still essentially nude, Accessorize!

 

[Ruby Jewel]

I don't mind nudity in the decks. They are what we are in reality anyway.

Once I had a deck with a few tasty photographic nude figures from both male and female models. I can't recall what it was called, but it was designed by a famous Italian photographer, and was OOP HTF deck. It read very well. Regrettably I traded it away.

I don't believe that there are decks with 100% nude figures in every 78 cards, but I could be wrong. I was under impression that most nude decks are only with a few appropriate cards with nudes such as the lovers, the world, star, devil and high priestess. Some decks would extend the nudity to the court cards, I would imagine.

As I said my earlier posts, I believe that the negative emotions of some people on nudity in good taste on tarot decks or media have nothing to do with the images themselves, but it is in the psychology of the person, affected by social religious educational family and personal back ground and experiences i.e. it's their emotional judgement, taste or problems.

Regrettably I do not own any decks with tasty nudity as such at present moment.

I don't see anyone on here being negative about nudity in general. To be accurate here, you need to differentiate between "nudity" and "pornography". Most everyone I know reads the Waite deck without a problem....If you're talking about "nudity" there is no real issue. If you are seeking justification and approval for "pornography" then the issue becomes controversial. Before a discussion like this begins, the categories need to be made clear. Because categories of this debate have not been made clear, this thread is incoherent and confusing. Having a legitimate debate about an issue by definition precludes projecting personal "negative" traits on participants of the debate since it is really just "skirting" the issue and contributes nothing. With that being said, I feel everyone needs to find their own personal resolution to this....as it is really a moral issue. And, as I said in other threads, "if you don't draw a "line", then you don't "draw" a line. Without categories being defined as well as honored, the debate is a waste of time....hence, this is where I draw the line. Cheers.

 

[foolMoon]

I don't see anyone on here being negative about nudity in general. To be accurate here, you need to differentiate between "nudity" and "pornography". Most everyone I know reads the Waite deck without a problem....If you're talking about "nudity" there is no real issue. If you are seeking justification and approval for "pornography" then the issue becomes controversial. Before a discussion like this begins, the categories need to be made clear. Because categories of this debate have not been made clear, this thread is incoherent and confusing. Having a legitimate debate about an issue by definition precludes projecting personal "negative" traits on participants of the debate since it is really just "skirting" the issue and contributes nothing. With that being said, I feel everyone needs to find their own personal resolution to this....as it is really a moral issue. And, as I said in other threads, "if you don't draw a "line", then you don't "draw" a line. Without categories being defined as well as honored, the debate is a waste of time....hence, this is where I draw the line. Cheers.

There are clear criteria between nudity and pornography. I don't believe any tarot decks depict pornography.

There have been hot philosophical debates about criteria between pornography and art.

 

[gregory]

There are clear criteria between nudity and pornography. I don't believe any tarot decks depict pornography.

There have been hot philosophical debates about criteria between pornography and art.

ER - I CAN point you to one. I will PM you. But I don't think it is selling...

On the whole, though, I absolutely agree with you. Some people aren't comfortable with nudity - I am one who would prefer to see male nudes as often as female, but other than that - no problem. MUCH rather nudity than OTT angels etc !

 

[gregory]

I don't think anyone has said anything about people who think differently being mentally ill. I would say that a deck illustrated with images that would sit well in Hustler magazine would have to have BRILLIANT ways to show that they meant anything in terms of tarot - that a tarotical meaning was evidenced in the image. As far as I am concerned, if the image on the card screams "I am the 7 swords" I'm OK with it, however nude it may be. As to artistic merit - there are a lot of very "good" decks - in terms of tarot - whose artwork is actually pretty poor. I don't want to name them, as I know some of their creators may well see this, but many here will concur.

One of the cards in the deck I mentioned shows nothing but a shaved female crotch with two jewels. It may JUST suggest 2 pents - but there's no hint of juggling, balance or anything else, just of the number 2. And the cards I have seen are the mildest in the deck.

Now compare that with a card from the Priapo - the ten swords, say, with a nastily severed male member - which is well executed artistically, and gets the tarot point across - while also being extremely explicit.

I almost wish I HAD the porn deck, so that I could cite some more cards - but I actively don't want it !

 

[Ruby Jewel]

I don't think anyone has said anything about people who think differently being mentally ill. QUOTE]

When someone makes a statement that a person who does not happen to agree with them simply has a problem with "negative emotions" based on psychological issues stemming from social religious education family and personal backgrounds and experiences; and that their opinion is based on "emotional judgment, taste or problems".....that is tantamount to saying they are mentally ill.

Such statements are actually unconscious projections attributed to someone else. In reality, they have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. They simply divert the subject in an attempt to establish a conclusion to the issue in their favor based solely on demeaning the personal attributes of their opponent. I certainly am not going to be seduced into defending my mental or intellectual capabilities to some silver-tongued purveyor of platitudes. As I said, who has the time, or the inclination, to deal with such nonsense. The ignorance is profound.

 

[Naomi Ningishzidda]

Hi,
I would love to know how folk view depictions of nudity in tarot decks.
Are there acceptable levels, where others are just too much or are you just plain put off and naked flesh renders a deck unusable?
I ask as the deck I am painting will likely have male and female nudity throughout and I am not seeking to create an erotic deck.
The state of undress feels necessary. Though I am not so keen to deploy an army of censorious fig-leaves, I may need to shyly turn figures away from the observer.
Perhaps I need two versions.
Perhaps I should start a poll to get a general idea.

If you are seeking to publish through a major publisher keep in mind that both US Games and Llewellyn will turn you down for nudity that shows genitals. US Games feels "Nudity will offend our customers". Llewellyn is a distributor for Lo Scarabeo but they don't publish these erotic decks themselves, just check yourself by searching for "erotic" on Aeclectic's database. If you are looking to self-publish I can assure you that they are very collectible but it is time consuming to self-publish. However, it is also much more lucrative if you are careful and your art is good enough.

As for me I don't mind, and most grandparents don't even care these days in America, they grew up in the Summer of Love after all.

Two versions is an option, especially if you are looking to hitch yourself to a publisher, big or not, lots of publishers are looking to crack into the tarot market and steal some of the market share from US Games and Llewellyn.

It isn't hard to paint on some fig leaves, and even to avoid ruining the work doing so (could use appliques before the photograph is taken, if the painting is not digital)

 

[prudence]

I think my favorite nudity in tarot might be the Daniloff. His artistic use of it is sublime and lovely. Especially that Lovers card. The figures are just so elegant, and there's nothing sleazy in it, there's nothing cheesy about it, and the breasts on the female figure are so adorable and not like silly balloons with rims across the top, as in the bad boob job kind of depiction I've seen in so many other decks. Her breasts actually fit her body, which is very slim and very elongated and elegant. So her boobs are shockingly proportional to her very slight frame. (I say shockingly because anymore, artists don't seem to take into account that if they draw a female who is clearly very thin, that her breasts should be on the smaller side, since you know that's how it is in reality, unless she's had a boob job) Nudity can be obnoxious and offensive even without reaching the level of true pornography (i.e. Depicting graphic sex acts) Here is a link to it, the Lovers card is the first one in the row http://www.daniloff-art.it/Tarocchi gallery/Tarot by Alexander Daniloff 2012.htm

In the Pros and Cons thread, I checked out a deck and its images and saw a terrible depiction of a female nude, with of course unreasonably giant boobs on a body that would not actually accommodate them, and yes, there was the noticeable rim around the top of the boob, almost as if the artist was literally looking at a porn image while drawing this female and her breast. https://www.amazon.com/Tarot-Santa-Muerte-Spanish-Tristan/dp/607787230X You have to look through the available images, until you see the Lovers card, and then you need to enlarge the image to see what I'm talking about. It's ludicrous. That is the kind of nudity I really loathe. Granted, the male is also depicted in an unreasonably muscular manner, but the woman's boob is so utterly stupid and over the top, and it does offend my sensibilities on many levels.

Again, I will say, I know Gaby will not be depicting this kind of nudity in her deck. She is a true artist who clearly has a sense of taste and style that just wouldn't portray nudity in such a low brow manner. I mean if you're an artist and you can draw anything, why on earth would you draw a breast that looks like a bad boob job with a noticeable rim around the top of it?

 

[bonebeach]

So, just to be clear:

"Negative emotions" is tantamount to calling someone mentally ill, but "unconscious projections" is...somehow different and therefore totally fine?

Okay. Glad that's sorted.

Now, actually about *nudity in tarot*, which is the title of this post, in, yes, a tarot forum--

I think Gregory's point about female vs male nudity is an excellent one! I definitely see a lot more female nudity than male nudity in decks and I agree I would like for the distribution to be more equal.

 

[RiverRunsDeep]

Now compare that with a card from the Priapo - the ten swords, say, with a nastily severed male member - which is well executed artistically, and gets the tarot point across - while also being extremely explicit.

I almost wish I HAD the porn deck, so that I could cite some more cards - but I actively don't want it !

So, just to be clear, the Priapo is the "porn" deck? Just asking out of curiosity, of course.

This thread has made me realize I am oblivious to nudity in tarot. Apparently, I own decks with nude images, but without some of the posts here, I would be hard pressed to say which decks or cards those would be. Nudity in tarot means something for me in regard to symbolism, but I haven't viewed anything thus far that I've found to be personally shocking or unacceptable.