Nudity in Tarot.

[BrightEye]

I'm a shameless European and find nothing special in nudity. Neither my own nor the nudity of other people. I don't associate nudity with physical perfection, i.e., I don't think that only gorgeous young people have the right to be seen.

In addition, I'm an art historian (and studied art, too) so I know that every body is interesting and beautiful. Artists never looked simply for perfection or sexiness in nude bodies - some artists saw the nudy body as metaphor for the eternal and divine, others saw it as inside-out-image of the human soul, others again as esthetic landscape, others as symbol of suffering.... every nude painting or sculpture has its own story and reason for its being.

I don't know where the ridiculous notion comes from that nudity is sleazy. Nothing is more beautiful IMO than a mother feeding her baby or people jumping into a Finnish lake in the nude... why should I judge their bodies? I don't have the right to judge anyone's mind, body or anything else about them.

So you can guess that nudity in a tarot deck neither attracts nor repels me. If the quality of the art is good, if I like the concept of a deck, then I really don't care whether the human figures in the deck are clad in nun's or monk's robes or in the nude or somewhere in the middle.

I don't like cute, coquettish "let's make this deck sexy"-additions of flesh - just like I don't see why it's used to sell all kind of stuff. But not because I'm a prude. Rather because I smell a kind of prudishness behind "cute sexy nudity" that excludes other kinds. (Some cards in the Lo Scarabeo tarot have this cartoonish kind of nudity... doesn't spoil the good sides of the deck but it's simply unnecessary IMO).

I never understood why in some countries make a big deal of breastfeeding. Really, that completely weirds me out.

Wholeheartedly agree!

 

[Ruby Jewel]

What's "need" ? We all need our bodies, which are essentially nude. You could argue that decks would be more honest if all the figures were nude. Stripping away artifice and everything we use to hide ourselves. Actually on reflection - I'd quite like to see a totally nude deck: traditional images with no clothes and no careful turning of backs to hide anything.

As for nudity in old decks - the Star is nude even in TdM decks, as is the World.... and in the Smith/Waite deck, lovers too.

I own one "erotic" deck that is "shocking" - in a "gives a shock to the mind", not in a "disgusting" way - to me - and also very funny; the others I have - and I have many - with nudity are not shocking at all, nor, I am SURE, were they intended to be. There is nothing shocking about the human body. Any shock is in our own minds.

Yes, some sitters might be shocked. I guess I would let them choose their deck anyway - but I would be saddened that their minds were limited in that way.

I doubt you could shock me in any way, form or fashion in this world. Having been on my own for 70 years....since 3 years of age......, I've learned to adapt and adjust and differentiate between what matters and what doesn't, and regarding nudity....well, it is a moot point with me. I thought I got that across. I don't notice, or care, if a figure is nude or dressed in a beautiful gown...but I'd probably notice the beautiful gown and not notice the nudity....that is why I couldn't really tell you if there is nudity in the TdM or not despite the fact I look through it periodically...I don't remember seeing it. I saw an erotic deck on Utube recently.....it wasn't erotic to me....it was brutal and violent and vulgar.....and all I can say to that is "to each his own. If I were creating a tarot deck, the only consideration that would determine whether I used nudity or not is the symbology I wish to achieve in the card. If I were expressing innocence I would probably use nudity....which means I might make the Empress and even the High Priestess nude.....and no doubt have to think about the Lovers a bit....why make an issue over it....is the only point I'm making....where does the emphasis lie? On nudity for the sake of nudity, or symbolism?

 

[delinfrey]

This is a fascinating thread.

Nudity has never bothered me in Tarot decks, I don't specifically notice it. There are a few decks that come to mind, though:

Röhrig Tarot, especially the Princess of Cups; she has her breasts covered, but her lady parts exposed, and that to me opens the card on a totally different layer. I could have it no other way.

Druidcraft and its Hanged Man - again, I cannot imagine a clothed one in that scene

Klimt Tarot - these gaudy figures with their sickly skin...

Mary-El Tarot, especially the World and the King of Cups, the slit of labia in the World card, the nudity of the King of Cups... again, couldn't imagine it any other way. Superb!

 

[Ruby Jewel]

This is a fascinating thread.

Nudity has never bothered me in Tarot decks, I don't specifically notice it. There are a few decks that come to mind, though:

Röhrig Tarot, especially the Princess of Cups; she has her breasts covered, but her lady parts exposed, and that to me opens the card on a totally different layer. I could have it no other way.

Druidcraft and its Hanged Man - again, I cannot imagine a clothed one in that scene

Klimt Tarot - these gaudy figures with their sickly skin...

Mary-El Tarot, especially the World and the King of Cups, the slit of labia in the World card, the nudity of the King of Cups... again, couldn't imagine it any other way. Superb!

I fully anticipate that pornography will weasel its way into the tarot tradition and attempt to use the tarot to promote itself in the same way that politics weaseled its way into the world of art and has pretty much succeeded in usurping the Fine Art's traditional place in our culture. However, as higher minds will always prevail, and do not hesitate to point out.....art is not dead as long as painters continue to paint. The same is true of the tarot. I feel those of us who are collecting the older decks that honor the evolved tradition of tarot.....are contributing to the preservation of that tradition. People are wiser than you might think. This type of tyranny is presently quite common in other realms of the culture.....seeds being an exemplary example. So, we have enormous seed banks being created inside mountain vaults and personal stashes growing and being shared all over the world. As Miss Janis Joplin so aptly pointed out to us long ago, "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." Freedom only works when we use judgment in exercising our freedom and honoring tradition which has evolved out of cultural sensitivities.

 

[gregory]

Oh there are already some totally sleazy decks in this world. But I don't think serious tarot enthusiasts buy them, never mind read for clients with them.

The Priapo (under 18 warning here...) is NOT porn, though it is explicit in spades; it is quite brilliant, from someone who knows their tarot. There are many other erotic but not porn decks shown on this site. There's also the Astar, which is borderline - there is evidence of some tarot thought (I was surprised at this particular artist producing something like it actually.) There's the Mysteries of Love and Sex - which uses images from existing art. All these work well as tarot.

There are several tarock decks, not intended for reading, like the Druuna, which are based on exiting comic books or suchlike. There have always been porn playing cards and these are in the same class. Dull, for people who need to take their minds off the game !

And then there is the group of four Australian ones - three of which are reasonably tasteful nude women and the fourth which isn't tasteful at all - and which also bears little relation to tarot. That's where the PORN PURE PORN filter (as in I do not want that deck thanks very much !) would hit me - when you can't get the meanings or what the "artist" was trying to indicate in tarot terms.

And honestly - I don't think those pure porn so-called decks are selling, unless possibly to readers of Hustler and worse. I can't see it as an issue for serious tarot people like us. And I think all collectors of tarot decks are helping to preserve the tradition - whether or not they choose to include that particular Australian deck. (For the record, no, I don't own it !)

 

[Farzon]

I fully anticipate that pornography will weasel it's way into the tarot tradition and attempt to use the tarot to promote itself.

Having my own share of experience on the topic, I don't think pornography needs anything to promote itself. Sex is it's own purpose. Porn has been around since humanity.

I also know only one really pornographic deck, which is completely not interesting to me.
Side note: if anyone knows more erotic decks which they deem interesting, feel free to PM me. [emoji28]

Freedom only works when we use judgment in exercising our freedom and honoring tradition which has evolved out of cultural sensitivities.

I fully agree on the first part.

But freedom has only too often been won against cultural sensitivities. This holds true for women's rights, anti-racist movements, LGBT-rights, even the whole idea of equal human rights.

Every act of individual freedom will hurt someone in their feelings and sensitivities. I see this argument much too often used to justify discrimination and suppression.

Even we as Tarot readers are hurting other people's cultural sensitivities, regarding their religious ethics. To them it's ethics, to us it's prejudices. It's always about the point of view, right?

 

[gregory]

But freedom has only too often been won against cultural sensitivities. This holds true for women's rights, anti-racist movements, LGBT-rights, even the whole idea of equal human rights.

Every act of individual freedom will hurt someone in their feelings and sensitivities. I see this argument much too often used to justify discrimination and suppression.

Even we as Tarot readers are hurting other people's cultural sensitivities, regarding their religious ethics. To them it's ethics, to us it's prejudices. It's always about the point of view, right?

This, absolutely. If I want to read with the Priapo - which actually reads very well, as others here can tell you ! - if, indeed, I want it to exist in the first place - that's my privilege. If you don't want me to use it when reading for you - that's yours.

 

[Metafizzypop]

I'm probably going to sound like a prude, but I'm not a fan of nudity in tarot. It's for a few different reasons.

One is that it's usually focused on women. I am sick of seeing women portrayed as sex objects and decorations. I see enough of it in the media in general, and I rarely see men appear in this way.

Another reason is that when clothes are missing, it takes something away from tarot. Clothes have symbolism. A tarot deck is a collection of pictures that are all symbolic, and clothes are an integral part of it. If I see a woman in a flowing red gown, I get a sense of passion in that woman, more so than if she were nude. If I see her in a nasty black outfit with spikes everywhere, I know she's about to kick someone's head into oblivion. I doubt I would get that impression if she wore only a fig leaf. In the end, without clothing there is no way to tell Queen from housemaid from warrior. Without clothing, the characters in tarot lose personality and identity. And the meaning of the card may go, too. I know some may feel otherwise, but I can only talk about how it seems to me.

Another aspect is repetition. If there's a lot of naked people in the deck, there's too much of the same thing. A tarot deck only has 78 cards with which to illustrate every aspect of human existence. But with boobs everywhere, the cards all look the same. A pair of boobs might represent something on one card. But if boobs appear over and over, then what does this mean on the other cards? It looks like the cards all represent the same thing. And I'm not talking about erotic decks here (which I feel have their own category). I mean some items that might come from the catalogue of Lo Scarabeo.

Some people say they want substance in a deck. All I'm asking for is a wardrobe.

 

[Ruby Jewel]

Oh there are already some totally sleazy decks in this world. But I don't think serious tarot enthusiasts buy them, never mind read for clients with them.

The Priapo (under 18 warning here...) is NOT porn, though it is explicit in spades; it is quite brilliant, from someone who knows their tarot. There are many other erotic but not porn decks shown on this site. There's also the Astar, which is borderline - there is evidence of some tarot thought (I was surprised at this particular artist producing something like it actually.) There's the Mysteries of Love and Sex - which uses images from existing art. All these work well as tarot.

There are several tarock decks, not intended for reading, like the Druuna, which are based on exiting comic books or suchlike. There have always been porn playing cards and these are in the same class. Dull, for people who need to take their minds off the game !

And then there is the group of four Australian ones - three of which are reasonably tasteful nude women and the fourth which isn't tasteful at all - and which also bears little relation to tarot. That's where the PORN PURE PORN filter (as in I do not want that deck thanks very much !) would hit me - when you can't get the meanings or what the "artist" was trying to indicate in tarot terms.

And honestly - I don't think those pure porn so-called decks are selling, unless possibly to readers of Hustler and worse. I can't see it as an issue for serious tarot people like us. And I think all collectors of tarot decks are helping to preserve the tradition - whether or not they choose to include that particular Australian deck. (For the record, no, I don't own it !)

Well Gregory, you are certainly well informed on tarot decks. An interesting bit of info here.

 

[Ruby Jewel]

Having my own share of experience on the topic, I don't think pornography needs anything to promote itself. Sex is it's own purpose. Porn has been around since humanity.

I also know only one really pornographic deck, which is completely not interesting to me.
Side note: if anyone knows more erotic decks which they deem interesting, feel free to PM me. [emoji28]



I fully agree on the first part.

But freedom has only too often been won against cultural sensitivities. This holds true for women's rights, anti-racist movements, LGBT-rights, even the whole idea of equal human rights.

Every act of individual freedom will hurt someone in their feelings and sensitivities. I see this argument much too often used to justify discrimination and suppression.

Even we as Tarot readers are hurting other people's cultural sensitivities, regarding their religious ethics. To them it's ethics, to us it's prejudices. It's always about the point of view, right?

For sure it's a complex world with many different points of view.....one tries to be just and equitable, but of course, you can't please everyone. Cultures evolve.....along with languages....I'm certainly no linguist, nor am I an anthropologist.....so, admittedly, my attempt to speak of a cultural evolution in any terms whatsoever is naïve to say the least.