The Lovers as feelings toward someone??

[Chiriku]

There is absolutely no anguish or angst in my realization that people disagree with me, Chiriku, just surprise at the fact that a 5.000 year-old archetype of sexual love means something different to so many people..

If you are talking about the Adam and Eve story, I have explained in my most recent post that a fairly significant force in Christendom does not view that story as "an archetype of sexual love." I have quite a bit of schooling in Roman Catholic theology, as well (though not as much as in my own Western Protestant tradition)but at the moment I'm drawing a mental blank on RC ideas of Adam and Eve. Perhaps they are more sexually-tinged and perhaps you, as someone with a background in a RC-majority country, have absorbed this view.

But the point is that all religious traditions are in essence cultural systems and that the interpretations of sacred texts are inevitably filtered through our own cultural lenses. Hence, it is not surprising that a story that is mostly about God, Choice and Free Will to some people may be more about sexuality to others. This natural multiplicity of cultural system and interpretation is reflected in the many denominations and sects of the various world religions.

But not all tarot systems even assign Adam and Eve to The Lovers to begin with. In fact, I still take a Choice- and Duality-centric view of the card based on some of the older, ostensibly non-esoteric renderings of this tarot card.

As LRichard pointed out, this type of view doesn't preclude references to a relationship or situation that is sexual in nature. It just means that we don't turn over The Lovers and think, "Ah! Sexual love, sexual choice, sexual whatever." I would have to do some mental twists and turns--which is the stuff of every meaty and significant tarot reading, IMO--in order to get to lust...which I would not have to do if I had turned over some other cards I associate more readily with sexuality.

 

[novenovembre]

You're probably right, Chiriku, my upbringing in a Catholic country -although I do not consider myself a catholic- might have to do with this slant on the Adam and Eve story. Also, my personal instincive response to the imagery of the RW card, my "teachers" when I was learning and studying tarot, and many other factors. I had heard of the other interpretations before, of course, like the choice one, but they never particularly "resonated" with me. Unless the "choice" was about sex, of course. Like when I see the Tower, it makes my heart jump and think of a major earthquake, impending disaster, furious breakup or fight of some kind, etc....that's my response to the card, and I can't change it. Some see it as falling in love, I know....not me-unless there was some other major traumatic event associated with it. Falling in love can be an extremely passionate, violent emotion-I know about that, I'm a very passionate woman myself-but I still can't see the Tower as falling in love, or having sex, generally speaking. Same for Death : it might be associated to scorpio, (and I'm a scorpio, so like I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm deeply connected to that card, but when it appears in a reading, it doesn't talk to me about sexual attraction-definitely.) So, even though on an abstract level I can see why Death would be associated to sex, that remains nothing more than an abstraction to me, purely academic. But that's only me....
And when I read cards in my very personal way, where the lovers are sexual LOVE, the Devil is Lust, obsession, perversion, etc etc, Death is a number of things I won't get into here, Tower, a major traumatic event, the 2 of cups attraction not necessarily sexual, and so on, I can see that it works for me-and for the people I read for-otherwise, believe me, I would give up or change my ways.....nobody wants to keep getting it wrong, I believe....
Well, this is it, really....

 

[Chiriku]

. . Like when I see the Tower, it makes my heart jump and think of a major earthquake, impending disaster, furious breakup or fight of some kind, etc....that's my response to the card, and I can't change it. Some see it as falling in love, I know....not me-unless there was some other major traumatic event associated with it. Falling in love can be an extremely passionate, violent emotion-I know about that, I'm a very passionate woman myself-but I still can't see the Tower as falling in love, or having sex, generally speaking. Same for Death : it might be associated to scorpio, (and I'm a scorpio, so like I said elsewhere in this thread, I'm deeply connected to that card, but when it appears in a reading, it doesn't talk to me about sexual attraction-definitely.) So, even though on an abstract level I can see why Death would be associated to sex, that remains nothing more than an abstraction to me, purely academic. But that's only me....

Well, it's certainly not only you. There are some people who can't help but figuratively roll their eyes when a Death-as-Scorpionic attraction or Tower-as-violent-sexual-event interpretation is offered by another reader here. I can see both views, myself, as yes, there is a good "abstract" argument to be made for those intrepretations but on the other hand, I value more "traditionalist" ideas as well.

In general in my life, I hover between respect for old ideas and admiration for new ones; if forced, I couldn't choose one "camp" and live within it for the rest of my life. I would always be either looking wistfully backward or longingly forward.

Which is to say...although I've personally never interpreted the Tower in a reading as an orgasm, there is every possibility that, based on the context of the reading and the question, I one day might do so.

Edited to Add: And likewise, although in the *abstract* I don't see The Lovers as sexually-tinged, there is every possibility that, based on the context of the reading and the question, I will (and have) viewed it in relation to sexuality.

 

[novenovembre]

What you are saying makes complete sense to me, as usual, Chiriku...

 

[novenovembre]

If you are talking about the Adam and Eve story, I have explained in my most recent post that a fairly significant force in Christendom does not view that story as "an archetype of sexual love." I have quite a bit of schooling in Roman Catholic theology, as well (though not as much as in my own Western Protestant tradition)but at the moment I'm drawing a mental blank on RC ideas of Adam and Eve. Perhaps they are more sexually-tinged and perhaps you, as someone with a background in a RC-majority country, have absorbed this view.

See my prev post. But I would also like to add, I learnt tarot in the UK, not Italy. Hence the RW, which in Italy is practically unknown..

 

[AzulParadiso]

In real life (from my very own personal experience reading for myself) and when reading for others, this card always pointed to some sort of "triangle" in love. Definitely not the "soul mate, love, meant to be together, happilyeveraftertheend" that many cookbook meanings portray. It always ended with the one I (or the querent) wanted choosing somebody else.

 

[ana luisa]

In real life (from my very own personal experience reading for myself) and when reading for others, this card always pointed to some sort of "triangle" in love. Definitely not the "soul mate, love, meant to be together, happilyeveraftertheend" that many cookbook meanings portray. It always ended with the one I (or the querent) wanted choosing somebody else.

It makes sense. I tend to favor the old meaning for this card which is Choice and every time I get it, it shows indecision and instability about some relationship. Usually the romantic type.

 

[AzulParadiso]

It makes sense. I tend to favor the old meaning for this card which is Choice and every time I get it, it shows indecision and instability about some relationship. Usually the romantic type.

Yes, so do I. Even though many people tell me that I'm wrong

 

[novenovembre]

I don't want to enter this discussion again as I've said really EVERYTHING I had to say on this subject-probably too much !- but I will just say that one interpretation doeesn't rule out the other-it all depends on context and surrounding cards.....in my experience, it often comes up when there is attraction, a sexual relationship, or even being in love-which doesn't mean it will last forever, or be a happily ever after, but that doesn't mean that, in other context, the Lovers could mean something else....

 

[Richard]

The Lovers as love (sexual or whatever) makes a heluva lot more sense than choice.