Any Geomancers Here?

[Barleywine]

I didn't see geomancy listed among the acceptable forum topics, and have been interested in starting a discussion thread. I've used it for a few years but pretty much in isolation. I had a couple of questions for those similarly inclined to get the topic rolling.

I first encountered geomancy in a practical way through Stephen Skinner's "Oracle of Geomancy" and what I could glean from Israel Regardie's Golden Dawn writings and fragments of more archaic documentation. Skinner is a bit light on interpretation, but I haven't yet pursued more recent stuff (Greer, et al). What are you using for source material and why is it useful?

I never found keeping a box of earth handy very practical, and the pencil-and-paper approach seems too disconnected from the source. Regardie suggested using either stones or dice as a way to generate the figures. The dice also seem a bit too "pre-fabricated" (although the cube is symbolically sound), so I spent a considerable amount of time scouring my back yard for similarly sized and shaped stones to use for random drawing. What method do you use for generating the geomanctic figures?

Do you use the standard-derivation layout, the astrological house chart, or both?

I hope there is enough interest to keep this going.

 

[ekb]

I didn't see geomancy listed among the acceptable forum topics, and have been interested in starting a discussion thread. I've used it for a few years but pretty much in isolation. I had a couple of questions for those similarly inclined to get the topic rolling.

w00t! Geomancers hanging with the tarot folks... sounds familiar...

What are you using for source material and why is it useful?

It depends on what I'm needing to refer to. The Greer books - especially Art & Practice - are really well organized and well-researched overviews of the renaissance sources. They definitely correct a number of the problems in Regardie's book that were inherited from the GD materials. The astrological aspects of the system call for astrological sources: William Lilly & Guido Bonatti tend to be my go-tos if I'm trying to work out aspect dignities and perfections... but if I'm doing that, I'm fishing for a way to make a less-than-positive reading something useful for the client.

Normally, I just use figure+topic and trust my gut with the basic imagery (carcer = "locked in, enclosed, trapped" which can be good or bad, depending on context). Works remarkably well for a quick and incisive answer...

What method do you use for generating the geomantic figures? Do you use the standard-derivation layout, the astrological house chart, or both?

I use tarot cards (or playing cards), but in a somewhat idiosyncratic way: I throw 4 cards per Mother and use the numeric value for even-odd. I generate the Daughters from red-black/long-round suits of the cards thrown for the Mothers: red is odd, black is even (mnemonic: rouge/noir). The rest of the chart proceeds as usual. When using tarot cards for this, Majors represent flux states - that figure is subject to external influence for good or bad, or is in the process of change. Courts that show up mean that the figure is tied to another person somehow.

 

[BodhiSeed]

Some folks have used "druid sticks":
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2655507&postcount=16
If you do a search in Divination, I'm sure you'll pull up some more information on them!

 

[Barleywine]

It depends on what I'm needing to refer to. The Greer books - especially Art & Practice - are really well organized and well-researched overviews of the renaissance sources. They definitely correct a number of the problems in Regardie's book that were inherited from the GD materials. The astrological aspects of the system call for astrological sources: William Lilly & Guido Bonatti tend to be my go-tos if I'm trying to work out aspect dignities and perfections... but if I'm doing that, I'm fishing for a way to make a less-than-positive reading something useful for the client.

Normally, I just use figure+topic and trust my gut with the basic imagery (carcer = "locked in, enclosed, trapped" which can be good or bad, depending on context). Works remarkably well for a quick and incisive answer...

Do you have any experience with the Franz Hartmann book, "Geomancy: A Method for Divination"? It seems to have a large number of "canned" interpretations in it. I use William Lilly's "Christian Astrology" but have nothing by Bonatti: is there a particular title? I'm an experienced astrologer, but mostly in 20th century techniques.

I use tarot cards (or playing cards), but in a somewhat idiosyncratic way: I throw 4 cards per Mother and use the numeric value for even-odd. I generate the Daughters from red-black/long-round suits of the cards thrown for the Mothers: red is odd, black is even (mnemonic: rouge/noir). The rest of the chart proceeds as usual. When using tarot cards for this, Majors represent flux states - that figure is subject to external influence for good or bad, or is in the process of change. Courts that show up mean that the figure is tied to another person somehow.

Interesting, especially the use of Majors to represent flux or change. I have a somewhat fanciful approach that does the same thing, except that I use it in the spirit of moving lines in I Ching. I start by drawing 16 groups of stones from an earthenware bowl to generate the Mothers; over some months I found sixteen (for no other reason than the symbolism of that number) round-ish stones of almost identical size, shape and smoothness. It really could have been any fairly large number (10 or 12, perhaps), the purpose being to have enough nominally uniform objects so it would be difficult to intentionally draw an odd or even set. But I also have two special stones that I throw into the bowl. One is an almost perfectly triangular stone that is divided precisely into two halves - one milky quartz and the other black granite, my "Yin-Yang" stone. The other is an absolutely round gray granite stone that has a triangular notch broken out of one side, making it look exactly like Pac-Man in profile, obviously my "Pac-Man" stone If "Yin-Yang" is drawn, I bump the count in the grab up by one, changing it from odd to even or vice versa. Similarly, if "Pac-Man" is drawn, I bump the count down by one, to the same effect. These altered lines can either change the structure of the affected Mother figure. or they can go into a second figure similar to the way a second hexagram is derived from moving lines in the I Ching, thereby originating a new chart that can be read as an alternative potential outcome, or to show movement, flux or change over time in the original result. I'm always experimenting with creative ways to stretch and tweak traditional practices while still adhering to the core principles.

 

[Barleywine]

Some folks have used "druid sticks":
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=2655507&postcount=16
If you do a search in Divination, I'm sure you'll pull up some more information on them!

Another interesting idea. It seems that dominoes could be used as well, laying them out as if starting a game and then drawing a series of 16 to create the Mothers. I kind of like sticking as close to the earth as possible, though, short of keeping a box of dirt in the basement, so I'll most likely stay with drawing the stones. The druid sticks remind me a bit of the yarrow stalk method of generating I Ching hexagrams (http://www.eheart.com/yarrow/use.html), although far fewer in number and much less complicated to use .

 

[Barleywine]

Here is an interesting "clarification" to the Golden Dawn system of geomancy. I also went and found a copy of Agrippa's "Of Geomancy" on-line (it's apparently in the public domain).

http://kheph777.tripod.com/gd_geomancy.html

 

[ekb]

Do you have any experience with the Franz Hartmann book, "Geomancy: A Method for Divination"? It seems to have a large number of "canned" interpretations in it. I use William Lilly's "Christian Astrology" but have nothing by Bonatti: is there a particular title? I'm an experienced astrologer, but mostly in 20th century techniques.

I normally don't list Hartmann or the other canned readings, mostly in that they're pretty much the opposite of divination and completely about fortune-telling instead. They're roughly the equivalent of saying the horoscope in the newspaper is accurate. Granted, occasionally they can be... but more often than not they simply create confusion than clarity.

The main Bonatti text I use is "Aphorisms," which basically is a checklist for what factors to consider when looking at an astrological chart. Applied to geomancy, an active figure of a planet is considered applying and a passive separating, which adds a level of detail to the aspects between figures in houses.

Interesting, especially the use of Majors to represent flux or change.

Well, specifically, that the figure can be deliberately changed or is in the process of being changed by an outside force. For example, I have Amissio in a house where I don't want to lose things. If the third line (Body, water - depending on system) is from a Trump, I can interpret the loss as something that comes from some external source (systemic meaning) that has emotional impact (water line). If that doesn't fit the context, it means that I can create external change if I alter the emotional quality of those issues in that house from an active involvement to a passive acceptance. Or, if Laetitia isn't well dignified either, I can leave the whole thing alone and swallow the loss and hope for the best.

Out of the 16 cards I throw for the mothers, a 5 Trumps should show up (as well as 3-4 Courts) which means that if I use the Trumps-as-opportunity-for-magic mechanism, I have a a good selection of starting places to examine the situation to change it. Then comes the matter of determining the origin and path of the changes from Niece to Daughter to Mother... It's a tool to look at if the chart indicates something completely unacceptable as an outcome, not a fatalistic prophecy of doom through inaction.

I like the i ching idea... but I find myself able to pick out the stones by touch after working with the tool for a while. I'd need to come up with something more random.

 

[Barleywine]

I normally don't list Hartmann or the other canned readings, mostly in that they're pretty much the opposite of divination and completely about fortune-telling instead. They're roughly the equivalent of saying the horoscope in the newspaper is accurate. Granted, occasionally they can be... but more often than not they simply create confusion than clarity.

My thought exactly regarding the initial method of formulating the Judge to answer a simple question. When I first encountered geomancy through the Skinner book, I looked at the canned meanings and said "Is that it?" Now that I understand a bit more about the astrological house assignments and interpretations, I can see that just piling on more "one-liners" won't change that much. But it might be worthwhile to have in my library for completeness. In reading the Golden Dawn material (Regardie's compilation) and also Agrippa and Heydon, its clear that the astrological approach is far superior.

Out of the 16 cards I throw for the mothers, 5 Trumps should show up (as well as 3-4 Courts) which means that if I use the Trumps-as-opportunity-for-magic mechanism, I have a a good selection of starting places to examine the situation to change it. Then comes the matter of determining the origin and path of the changes from Niece to Daughter to Mother... It's a tool to look at if the chart indicates something completely unacceptable as an outcome, not a fatalistic prophecy of doom through inaction.

Thanks for elaborating. I'm going to give it a try. Just curious, how do you figure in the court cards for the odd/even determination? They aren't numbered the way the trumps and pip cards are. By a simple 1-2-3-4 progression, from King to Page? By polarity? Or something else entirely?

I like the i ching idea... but I find myself able to pick out the stones by touch after working with the tool for a while. I'd need to come up with something more random.

In answering another post, I had the idea that dominoes might work. Turn them face-down as you would for a game, mix them around, then randomly draw a series of 16. The only twist I can think of is how to count the tile with two blank ("0") ends. Either count it as "even" or maybe just take it out of the population before starting. However, there are only 12 odd tiles in a normal double-six set of 28, so it might be better to use a double-nine set or two double-six sets. Since some of the tiles arrive at the same number two different ways (e.g. a "two-spot" and a blank end, or two "one-spots," either way making a "two"), it might be possible to treat one of them - possibly the "unbalanced" one - like a "moving" line in I Ching. The dominoes have great antiquity, dating back at least to Egypt in 1350 BCE, so they would not be out-of-place for this use. And I think it's even possible (although expensive) to get a stone set. Overall I like the idea of dominoes better than dice.

 

[crystal dawn]

i have used dice before and even coins to generate the main figures, its just as random as dots on paper or picking up sticks. Which is the whole idea really to generate the main figures. the books i found most useful where astrological geomancy - terrestrial astrology by stephen skinner and greers book earth divination, after reading these my readings really did start to come to life and i was able to look deeper into them than before. I always display the figures in the square astrological chart, though there are people that use the round one as in traditional astrology. What I love about astrological geomancy is that there are so many different angles that you can look at and you can glean so much information from just one chart.

blessed be

crystal dawn

 

[Barleywine]

i have used dice before and even coins to generate the main figures, its just as random as dots on paper or picking up sticks. Which is the whole idea really to generate the main figures. the books i found most useful where astrological geomancy - terrestrial astrology by stephen skinner and greers book earth divination, after reading these my readings really did start to come to life and i was able to look deeper into them than before. I always display the figures in the square astrological chart, though there are people that use the round one as in traditional astrology. What I love about astrological geomancy is that there are so many different angles that you can look at and you can glean so much information from just one chart.

blessed be

crystal dawn

I went looking on-line for a square medieval chart blank to print out, but finally wound up drawing my own. It seems more in tune with the spirit of geomancy to use the old way (but I guess that's just me and my anachronistic Cancerian leanings ). I agree that any method that is suitably random and not unduly subject to conscious manipulation is appropriate to generate the Mothers. I like the round, smooth stones because they're directly "of the earth," and I took the trouble to find them all myself.