Moonbow
If I'm understanding you correctly rox, you are saying the face on the Devil's belly is a Masonry symbol? Is there a reference somewhere where we can read up more about this?
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Card XV - the Devil - face on the belly
rox
Devil's second face
Medieval churches were constructed in geologically active places to be precise instruments, in harmony with earth and the heavens, functioning as machines for the transformation of those within. All the sciences were applied to that end. The Companions who built them were masters of sacred geometry and the other facets of construction which contributed to the harmonic tension of the building.
The text I included is Jean Claude's, and he isn't here to develop the question or cite his sources. Indeed, his remark doesn't seem to assert, beyond a reasonable hunch, that the face in question absolutely referred to the mason's "sensing" of a stone's orientation. What I do know is that here the word mason refers literally to a stonemason, and not to a symbol connected to Freemasonry.
It seems stones have a geomagnetic orientation which is imprinted as they are formed. This "sense" remains after the stone is quarried. To make a wall for a building under tension, destined to be an "instrument", the layers of stone must be made with care to alternate the stones' orientation. The practised mason would learn to sense this orientation by holding the stone to his belly and "reading" it. He would be able to determine how the stone should be placed. This idea is completely in line with what one knows of the art of Romanesque and Medieval building fraternities. In this case, I'd hazard that the face on the devil's belly is much more a "reference" than a symbol per se.
I know this is all a bit weak academically, but much is lost today concerning the art of sacred construction, at its height centuries ago. The idea expressed appeals to me, and seems perfectly plausible - but one can of course take it or leave it.
Medieval churches were constructed in geologically active places to be precise instruments, in harmony with earth and the heavens, functioning as machines for the transformation of those within. All the sciences were applied to that end. The Companions who built them were masters of sacred geometry and the other facets of construction which contributed to the harmonic tension of the building.
The text I included is Jean Claude's, and he isn't here to develop the question or cite his sources. Indeed, his remark doesn't seem to assert, beyond a reasonable hunch, that the face in question absolutely referred to the mason's "sensing" of a stone's orientation. What I do know is that here the word mason refers literally to a stonemason, and not to a symbol connected to Freemasonry.
It seems stones have a geomagnetic orientation which is imprinted as they are formed. This "sense" remains after the stone is quarried. To make a wall for a building under tension, destined to be an "instrument", the layers of stone must be made with care to alternate the stones' orientation. The practised mason would learn to sense this orientation by holding the stone to his belly and "reading" it. He would be able to determine how the stone should be placed. This idea is completely in line with what one knows of the art of Romanesque and Medieval building fraternities. In this case, I'd hazard that the face on the devil's belly is much more a "reference" than a symbol per se.
I know this is all a bit weak academically, but much is lost today concerning the art of sacred construction, at its height centuries ago. The idea expressed appeals to me, and seems perfectly plausible - but one can of course take it or leave it.
mac22
rox said:Medieval churches were constructed in geologically active places to be precise instruments, in harmony with earth and the heavens, functioning as machines for the transformation of those within. All the sciences were applied to that end. The Companions who built them were masters of sacred geometry and the other facets of construction which contributed to the harmonic tension of the building.
The text I included is Jean Claude's, and he isn't here to develop the question or cite his sources. Indeed, his remark doesn't seem to assert, beyond a reasonable hunch, that the face in question absolutely referred to the mason's "sensing" of a stone's orientation. What I do know is that here the word mason refers literally to a stonemason, and not to a symbol connected to Freemasonry.
It seems stones have a geomagnetic orientation which is imprinted as they are formed. This "sense" remains after the stone is quarried. To make a wall for a building under tension, destined to be an "instrument", the layers of stone must be made with care to alternate the stones' orientation. The practised mason would learn to sense this orientation by holding the stone to his belly and "reading" it. He would be able to determine how the stone should be placed. This idea is completely in line with what one knows of the art of Romanesque and Medieval building fraternities. In this case, I'd hazard that the face on the devil's belly is much more a "reference" than a symbol per se.
I know this is all a bit weak academically, but much is lost today concerning the art of sacred construction, at its height centuries ago. The idea expressed appeals to me, and seems perfectly plausible - but one can of course take it or leave it.
Not completely weak. I spent 2 summers dry fitting rock walls from natural stone for trails in the Sierra . It's almost a lost art today. There is often just 1 orientation to the stone, after awhile you get a feel/sense of what that is from the stone itself. It's as much an art as it is craft. By mid summer I was using the chisel and/or dressing hammer only occasionally. My hand just seemed to go to the next "correct" stone in the pile.
It gave me a healthy respect for the old stonemasons, their tools: dressing, setting maul, chisel, square, plumb etc. & an understanding of "living" stone as nothing since has.
Mac22
ihcoyc
mac22 said:There is often just 1 orientation to the stone, after awhile you get a feel/sense of what that is from the stone itself. It's as much an art as it is craft. By mid summer I was using the chisel and/or dressing hammer only occasionally. My hand just seemed to go to the next "correct" stone in the pile.
Interesting. Then Flornoy's interpretation of the face in the belly reflects respect for the intelligence of "gut feelings" by skilled stoneworkers.
But, then, why ascribe this to the Devil?
mac22
ihcoyc said:Interesting. Then Flornoy's interpretation of the face in the belly reflects respect for the intelligence of "gut feelings" by skilled stoneworkers.
But, then, why ascribe this to the Devil?
I wouldn't know. But a guess would be it may have something to do with instincts & the unconscious.
Mac22
eugim
Hi Rox and all of you here...
Well as I posted before here,faces (and not only) on LE DIABLE belly depict for me the intelligent life of the Matter (So energy as life).
So for me XV card depict the Matter,his belly his "center point of feel".
The belly on us is our center of feel earth (so matter/ energies)
So on a deep sense we are talking about the same "Feeling"
Why ? / Because as Rox for me exactly said it s not a topic of rational (So measure) arguments.
Is a side for just feel Matter ( outside and inside ours) on the belly and emotions at ours hearts.
Do you remember "where" was the center point of your emotions when you were at your seventeens (with the teens ? )
And if you are more than 40 something you just begin to learn how to swing them ? / How ? -Well with your heart center,Caro Amicci...
That drives me to the topic of duality on Tarot (Spirit/Matter-Masculine/Feminine-Earth/Sky-Outside/Inside-Macro and Micro after all...)
I think Tarot is full of examples of duality.
(Forgive my poor English please Comrades)
Eugim
Well as I posted before here,faces (and not only) on LE DIABLE belly depict for me the intelligent life of the Matter (So energy as life).
So for me XV card depict the Matter,his belly his "center point of feel".
The belly on us is our center of feel earth (so matter/ energies)
So on a deep sense we are talking about the same "Feeling"
Why ? / Because as Rox for me exactly said it s not a topic of rational (So measure) arguments.
Is a side for just feel Matter ( outside and inside ours) on the belly and emotions at ours hearts.
Do you remember "where" was the center point of your emotions when you were at your seventeens (with the teens ? )
And if you are more than 40 something you just begin to learn how to swing them ? / How ? -Well with your heart center,Caro Amicci...
That drives me to the topic of duality on Tarot (Spirit/Matter-Masculine/Feminine-Earth/Sky-Outside/Inside-Macro and Micro after all...)
I think Tarot is full of examples of duality.
(Forgive my poor English please Comrades)
Eugim
Bernice
Good evening people (gone midnight here).
I can understand Eugims thoughts.
Bee
Is it vaugely possible that the 'devil' was thought to be a stone-like creature? Didn't god cast him into the Earth...But, then, why ascribe this to the Devil?
I can understand Eugims thoughts.
Bee
eugim
Hello Bee !
By the way I know that I owe you an answer,so be patient (I m working on it Madam).
I think is good to find and show facts that support ours beliefs (I mean neccesary).
But by the way also is good not forget "come down" Tarot to ours next door situation.
I really know that here we are trying to " get serious facts body" to the "Field" of ours beliefs about Tarot and this is awesome for me and that s why Im am here...
But common sense will never be forget as you told me once time ago .
Tarot is duality for me so reconciliation to see future...
As you know I m far from the farthest about easy conclusions.
I just only think that we must search historical source but TOGETHER so without shut ours Souls impressions.
My best Respects Madam,
Eugim
By the way I know that I owe you an answer,so be patient (I m working on it Madam).
I think is good to find and show facts that support ours beliefs (I mean neccesary).
But by the way also is good not forget "come down" Tarot to ours next door situation.
I really know that here we are trying to " get serious facts body" to the "Field" of ours beliefs about Tarot and this is awesome for me and that s why Im am here...
But common sense will never be forget as you told me once time ago .
Tarot is duality for me so reconciliation to see future...
As you know I m far from the farthest about easy conclusions.
I just only think that we must search historical source but TOGETHER so without shut ours Souls impressions.
My best Respects Madam,
Eugim
eugim
Damn it I forgot it Bee !!!
You said "Didn't god cast him into the Earth... "
That s for me the whole ultimate center point,the begining of the deep inside question all about,
God cast him into the Matter (So Earth) (So Christ If anyone want) waiting that the Anima Mundi (For me the XXI card) makes his work of transmutation of matter returning of Spirit so God enriched with " experience of life about MATTER "
As a resukt / OPUS ALCHEMICUM
Eugim
You said "Didn't god cast him into the Earth... "
That s for me the whole ultimate center point,the begining of the deep inside question all about,
God cast him into the Matter (So Earth) (So Christ If anyone want) waiting that the Anima Mundi (For me the XXI card) makes his work of transmutation of matter returning of Spirit so God enriched with " experience of life about MATTER "
As a resukt / OPUS ALCHEMICUM
Eugim
Hooked on TdM
Darn it i just deleted my answer! Grr...
Okay, for me the Devil's tummy face is about instincts and base emotions. To me, it represents our most basic needs and desires and the lesser desired ones. I think of the term gut instincts when I see this. I also noted that it appears to be in the area of the Manipura (navel) chakra. The Manipura represents ignorance, fear, disgust, shame, sadness, foolishness, treachery, thirst, delusion and jealousy. On a personal note it also represents trauma to me.
I happen to have an eye tattooed in this very area, so when I see it, I associate it with all the reasons why I have my eye tattooed there.
Hooked
Okay, for me the Devil's tummy face is about instincts and base emotions. To me, it represents our most basic needs and desires and the lesser desired ones. I think of the term gut instincts when I see this. I also noted that it appears to be in the area of the Manipura (navel) chakra. The Manipura represents ignorance, fear, disgust, shame, sadness, foolishness, treachery, thirst, delusion and jealousy. On a personal note it also represents trauma to me.
I happen to have an eye tattooed in this very area, so when I see it, I associate it with all the reasons why I have my eye tattooed there.
Hooked
