critique

[gregory]

I do have a should actually - because rudeness and flaming and trolling gets interesting threads closed and stifles discussion. So I WILL say that we should all be polite.

That does include me. Everyone who has been aching to point out that they deserve an apology from me, please feel free to PM

 

[Debra]

A test case.

Look at the new thread on the Tarot Illuminati. http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=170786

Look the *snickers* and choking and gasping about this in-progress deck from some who've been talking here on this thread. There is some constructive criticism but not as much as would be fairly considered polite and thoughtful.


eta: I myself fixated on one part of one image in that deck. It took some effort to tear my eyes away and say something more generally, um, helpful.

My point being that (in my opinion of course) despite the sincere tone of this thread, our high ground is only barely above sea level.

 

[starlightexp]

But that deck is not being created here. The talk here is how a dialog can happen between the artist and this forum that is not just fluff or flame. If the artist was making the deck here and asking for opinions then this discussion would more apply. I do know of one person here who has sent the artist a message with a few questions regarding artistic choices in representing the card. There were things in one or two of the images that, to them, seemed counter to the base nature of the card. As they are patterned on the RWS. At first they were not going to, but do to the discussion here they felt a bit more empowered to be able to ask questions.

For me I think the object and value of a thread like this is to spark the idea of ways one can talk about the art being created in a way that is beneficial to both side of the creation process. Are we telling people how they should post, no. But people should not need to be told how to use shampoo and yet there are directions on it.

 

[poopsie]

I have been reading this thread and I find the comments quite interesting and enriching ... a number of us are hoping that some will be politely "honest" in giving a constructive criticism about a deck and the artists will be open enough to accept these views.

Some of us are also a little unhappy about the more positive notes we read and less of the more fruitful comments which could trigger betterment and improvement of the work.

I guess the one dilemma which is also a blessing that AT has is that we are a diverse group that values openness and valuing differences, and in doing so, we hesitate to make remarks which may be viewed as offensive except for a few "little" quarrels and misunderstandings which are easily patched up through clear communication and apologies with clarifications.

This is really a very healthy forum because people who have not seen each other nor know each other can share so much of their views and not be scared to be put on the defensive.

On the other hand, we also would want our colleagues to improve so that we can escalate our standards as tarot deck creators which is why we feel the need for such forums and openness to criticism as well as the will to say it honestly and tactfully as we could.

My problem is this -- I have no idea if a positive comment is sincere or not, because I do think that people here are actually sincere when they applaud a creation. We may not like it because from our point of view, there is something not pleasing to our eyes or whatever, but others do like it, and they say so. I guess though, we may not be hearing enough of those who are bound to disagree. And this is also what we would want to encourage if we want to constantly make our interactions educational and enriching.

It is really a matter of opinion ... I liken the tarot to paintings and painters. I have friends who love Van Gogh paintings and they buy reprints of this, and I have others who do not think much of Van Gogh and just consider his paintings as more projective of his mental condition.

In other fields, they put some agreed-upon standards to these things and therefore, any output or product is subjected to these standards before release to the public eye. I am most certain that if this were proposed, most people in AT would wreak havoc, just as a number of us do frown upon certification.

But I do agree, honest feedback and a good constructive critique is beneficial if we want to improve what we have created. There's no such thing as a perfect work and this can always be subject to refinements and changes. Even masterpieces do get a flack. Maybe, what would help tarot deck creators is to pose a few questions for us so that we also know where to zero in on our comments.

For instance, if I show my creation, I would ask people to comment about the colors in some cards, or the use of objects, or the clarity? I am sure creators have some curious questions about their own creations. And I also agree with the rest - it's good to give comments on how we can improve the deck - being more specific (colors that seem dull? symbols hard to figure out?, etc.) - this way, the critique becomes more enriching and clearer.

I wonder -- would a thread with clear guidelines on this help?

Just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[gregory]

But that deck is not being created here. The talk here is how a dialog can happen between the artist and the forum that is not just fluff or flame. If the artist was making the deck here and asking for opinions then this discussion would apply. I do know of one person here who has sent the artist a message with a few questions regarding artistic choices in representing the card. There were things in one or two of the images that, to them, seemed counter to the base nature of the card. As they are patterned on the RWS. At first they were not going to, but do to the discussion here they felt a bit more empowered to be able to ask questions.

For me I think the object and value of a thread like this is to spark the idea of ways one can talk about the art being created in a way that is beneficial to both side of the creation process. Are we telling people how they should post, no. But people should not need to be told how to use shampoo and yet there are directions on it.

That's KIND of true - but there are actually people here who genuinely want to know what others think of a new deck -wherever it comes from. And suppose the artist were looking here (for all I know he (she ?) may be. Should s/he not be entitled to the same respect as artists who are members here ? (Indeed, maybe they ARE a member here...how would we know ?)

And - the deck is NOT yet in print. Changes COULD still happen, after all. I have known cases where LoS decks changed quite a lot during production. There was one card in particular that stands out - the original Tower in their round angels deck. It was totally changed when the deck had almost made it to the print shop. So - concrit would still be relevant and could have an effect.

I do agree that most of this thread deals with people who post their work here for comment, but still, debra's right, in essence. Though a bit of tongue in cheek is OK too.

 

[GryffinSong]

...In other fields, they put some agreed-upon standards to these things and therefore, any output or product is subjected to these standards before release to the public eye. I am most certain that if this were proposed, most people in AT would wreak havoc, just as a number of us do frown upon certification...

This is a very good point, but you've triggered an idea. What if we had a formal critique section? It could have very specific guidelines on what constitutes a formal critique. That way, a deck creator can choose to share just to share, or with specific guidelines of their own in the general area of deck creation. And if a deck creator truly wants a formal, detailed critique, they have a place to ask for one where they know exactly the type of feedback they're going to get. This would help me tremendously in knowing where to put my time. I wouldn't have to dither about whether my valuable time would be wasted. I would love it, and would make the time to help out, knowing, as an artist, how valuable such feedback is, and knowing that these artists choose to participate in such a process.

I wonder -- would a thread with clear guidelines on this help?

Yes, I believe so. Furthermore, if artists want something different, or want a subset of a full critique as defined by a formal critique area, they can say that, either in deck creation or in the critique area. Heck, if the moderators decide to create a new subforum I'd be willing to toss ideas their way on potential guidelines for it. I feel that it would be worth my time, and a very valuable resource to AT.

 

[OnePotato]

Although I agree with OnePotato that insincerity is unfair to those played for fools.

Well, I was trying to be polite when I used the word "insincere".

What I meant was:
What happens when either a deck creator, or a deck critic, says something with an "ulterior motive" "manipulative intention" "hidden agenda" "public relations conscious" "self-serving agenda" "premeditated comment designed to influence other people's opinion against the competition and in favor of what they support" (You know, things like that) in mind?

I was talking about the few creators who pretend they want feedback, but actually just want to promote themselves for future sales.
I was talking about the few "critics" who pretend to be helpful, but are in reality deliberately planting a negative seed on someone's work because they support someone else's.
(It's a form of viral marketing. Pretend you're just having a discussion, but your true goal is to manipulate the perception of the buying public. So while negative comments may be helpful toward improvement, they are bad for business.)

And I was NOT just talking about what goes on in the Deck Creation Forum, but over the entire community.

I think the majority of posters are sincere and well-meaning, but if even a select few are engaged in the behavior I've described above, the result is an un-level playing field.
Somebody profits, but it is at the expense of those who think they are having a straight forward discussion.
Everything is dragged down because of the hidden bias/agenda/motive.

Of course there is nothing wrong with promotion and marketing.
We have space devoted to advertising, and showing off work in progress can be interesting, and most people want to hear about new things.
The problem comes when one side pretends that promotion is not their primary motive, in a place that is intended for neutral discussion.
Then, we all end up here, talking about how to "help" someone who never actually wanted that kind of help in the first place, or how bad manners may be the problem.

 

[gregory]

Very well said.

 

[VGimlet]

I like the idea of a more formal critique section. I think I would feel more comfortable posting about decks in progress in a forum where artists and creators are actively inviting comments and constructive criticism. I tend to treat the creation forum as more of a show-and-tell on the part of deck creators. Even when the creators say they want input, I have seen too many times when feelings are hurt, flame wars begin...not a good idea.

I personally only comment on decks I like and if I say I will buy it when it's available, I do. If I don't comment, it's because I don't like it, for whatever reason. Or don't see the thread.

 

[starlightexp]

I would just like to say that this tread has been an wonderful tread to both read and post in. The length of the posts and thought that people are putting into this discussion are fantastic. I applaud everyone here for not turning this thread into a decent into madness like past threads on this issue.

You all have made my day!

Edmund