Puzzling the CharlesV1/Griggoneur Yet Again!
le pendu
These types of connections make perfect sense to me Rosanne. Thanks for opening this up for discussion.
Rosanne
How do you do that Debra? 
I can't for the life of me get it right! Many thanks.
Interesting eh? I wondered why these handpainted cards -so expensive come down to us missing some here and there- well they may well have been divided up in gift giving at the Feast day! No one appeared to get a whole deck! This may be the reason some were ordered in a rush- for gifts?
Here are two lessor(poorer) family 'ceri'- just woodcut cards, unpainted but definitely bottom licking to the Medici- Lorenzo in particular. They are on plain card stock apparently. No painted candles have survived (well they would not, would they?) Maybe these cards are the original Tourist postcard lol.
Lets discuss away Robert- it is a very fascinating (to me undiscussed before)subject. I did not know separate cards were given as gifts- Marriage decks yes, but single cards no! It is like they are secular Holy pictures.
~Rosanne
I can't for the life of me get it right! Many thanks.Interesting eh? I wondered why these handpainted cards -so expensive come down to us missing some here and there- well they may well have been divided up in gift giving at the Feast day! No one appeared to get a whole deck! This may be the reason some were ordered in a rush- for gifts?
Here are two lessor(poorer) family 'ceri'- just woodcut cards, unpainted but definitely bottom licking to the Medici- Lorenzo in particular. They are on plain card stock apparently. No painted candles have survived (well they would not, would they?) Maybe these cards are the original Tourist postcard lol.
Lets discuss away Robert- it is a very fascinating (to me undiscussed before)subject. I did not know separate cards were given as gifts- Marriage decks yes, but single cards no! It is like they are secular Holy pictures.
~Rosanne
Attachments
Rosanne
I am trying to read this book fast (Public Life in Renaissance Florence)- but all the Italian bits have me somewhat stumped hehe.
So the main gift giving for charity and the exchange of symbols of wealth happened on June 24th St John the Baptist's feast day and the Virtue symbols are those on the cassone linked properly by Debra. They are Faith Hope Charity and Prudence. For the Joust and Palio or armeggeria were Temperance, Strength/Fortitude and Justice. I can't work out what the fourth is. Interestingly it may be what ever the Hanged Man symbolises(Civil sacrifice???)- because on the same day the money raised from the offerings were distributed to Prisoners and non political groups like Hospitals etc. This was duty not free will- in fact if families did not attend they were fined anyway. The clergy would sell the pallium back to the highest bidder and get to have them hung in the church till the next procession. If I am reading right it seems that 40 florins would pay for a pallium that your Brigade had made- so it was a costly donation for the poor that had not political force anyway. It was your Civic duty. Sometimes it seems that the Church did not pass the money on (why does this not surprise me?) and used it to run the church. So it was forced participation to make it look like a show of solidarity.
It is an interesting thought that Florence did not have any natural 'Holy Ground' it was a river plain- no sacred wells or mountains- no Gods had lived there in ancient times- so they set about making their own holy ground within the city walls. It was a Roman training camp in early times- apparently there used to be some Elephants kept on the plains for the army. As it was a merchant or burgher city- they were looked on with some disdain by the aristocracy and so like all New Rich- they displayed their wealth to compensate- they did the Procession better and at greater cost than anywhere else in Italian city states.
....and I am only at chapter three lol....
~Rosanne
So the main gift giving for charity and the exchange of symbols of wealth happened on June 24th St John the Baptist's feast day and the Virtue symbols are those on the cassone linked properly by Debra. They are Faith Hope Charity and Prudence. For the Joust and Palio or armeggeria were Temperance, Strength/Fortitude and Justice. I can't work out what the fourth is. Interestingly it may be what ever the Hanged Man symbolises(Civil sacrifice???)- because on the same day the money raised from the offerings were distributed to Prisoners and non political groups like Hospitals etc. This was duty not free will- in fact if families did not attend they were fined anyway. The clergy would sell the pallium back to the highest bidder and get to have them hung in the church till the next procession. If I am reading right it seems that 40 florins would pay for a pallium that your Brigade had made- so it was a costly donation for the poor that had not political force anyway. It was your Civic duty. Sometimes it seems that the Church did not pass the money on (why does this not surprise me?) and used it to run the church. So it was forced participation to make it look like a show of solidarity.
It is an interesting thought that Florence did not have any natural 'Holy Ground' it was a river plain- no sacred wells or mountains- no Gods had lived there in ancient times- so they set about making their own holy ground within the city walls. It was a Roman training camp in early times- apparently there used to be some Elephants kept on the plains for the army. As it was a merchant or burgher city- they were looked on with some disdain by the aristocracy and so like all New Rich- they displayed their wealth to compensate- they did the Procession better and at greater cost than anywhere else in Italian city states.
....and I am only at chapter three lol....
~Rosanne
Huck
Rosanne said:
Books.google.com, not all, but a part of it
http://books.google.com/books?id=Jx..._30CA&sig=TCwYzFrqthcPHJxnwS8rfggGAGk#PPP1,M1
Rosanne
Thanks Huck! The annotations are in English on the web edition but in Italian in the Library book!
There are several things I do not understand about the deck. If that is Sigismund the Emperor- he died in 1437, he fought the Ottomans. The death card has a Saracen type rider on the horse as Death- but the Pope and his two Cardinals and a King and Sigismund? have their eyes open as if not dead???
If that is Pious the II as Pope- He visited in 1459 to the opening of the completed Church- why is Sigismund on the card- The Emperor? The only connection I can see is that Sigismund founded the order of the Green Dragon and one of Lorenzo's Brigade and Companies was called the Green Dragon- that had the wool guild. I do not understand why he is depicted on a stage outside a church- he was not a saint. The Green Dragon Church was Sancto Spiritu. Why would the Emperor, if Sigismund, not have that Iron crown on from when he was made Emperor? Maybe that is not Pope Pious the II? ~Rosanne
There are several things I do not understand about the deck. If that is Sigismund the Emperor- he died in 1437, he fought the Ottomans. The death card has a Saracen type rider on the horse as Death- but the Pope and his two Cardinals and a King and Sigismund? have their eyes open as if not dead???
If that is Pious the II as Pope- He visited in 1459 to the opening of the completed Church- why is Sigismund on the card- The Emperor? The only connection I can see is that Sigismund founded the order of the Green Dragon and one of Lorenzo's Brigade and Companies was called the Green Dragon- that had the wool guild. I do not understand why he is depicted on a stage outside a church- he was not a saint. The Green Dragon Church was Sancto Spiritu. Why would the Emperor, if Sigismund, not have that Iron crown on from when he was made Emperor? Maybe that is not Pope Pious the II? ~Rosanne
OnePotato
Have you heard of "Torre Aquila" in Trento?Rosanne said:
I think you might like to see that...
http://www.buonconsiglio.it/english/Default.asp?SezSup=2&SezInf=0&Livello=1&Pag=14
So, what do the little groups in the parade remind you of, as they follow one to the next?Rosanne said:
Maybe cards and parades are cut not from one another, but from the same blue fabric...?
Rosanne
What we call the World Card.
Strictly from the Image.
Seven Clouds or Five Maybe
Seven Hills within a Green Disc/Mirror/Circle
Virtuous Saint or Virtue standing on Whatsit.
Wand in right hand, Florin/Mirror/Globe in Left hand
Maybe Simonetta Vespucchi, maybe not.
Could be Prudence
Could Be Fortune
Could be Fame
Might even be Chastity.
Winner of the Dance
Madam Florence
Vainglory in the sense of Boastful of Florence's accomplishments and qualities.
It seems to me this card does not have the same presence as other historic World cards. It seems to be saying "Look! Florence has what Rome has (alluding to the 7 Hills of Rome) we have seven Magnificent Churches"
Does anyone see this deck as Tarot?
~Rosanne
Strictly from the Image.
Seven Clouds or Five Maybe
Seven Hills within a Green Disc/Mirror/Circle
Virtuous Saint or Virtue standing on Whatsit.
Wand in right hand, Florin/Mirror/Globe in Left hand
Maybe Simonetta Vespucchi, maybe not.
Could be Prudence
Could Be Fortune
Could be Fame
Might even be Chastity.
Winner of the Dance
Madam Florence
Vainglory in the sense of Boastful of Florence's accomplishments and qualities.
It seems to me this card does not have the same presence as other historic World cards. It seems to be saying "Look! Florence has what Rome has (alluding to the 7 Hills of Rome) we have seven Magnificent Churches"
Does anyone see this deck as Tarot?
~Rosanne
Rosanne
Yes I have heard of Eagle Tower- Because when I was young I sneaked a book called "Where Eagles Dare" and read my first piece of Porn, so when I found it (the Tower) in an Art book it showed January or December I think.
You are right of course- this site in Ferrara
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/t/tura/schifano/index.html
But I think that even if these processions were a 'Months Cycle' memory- somehow it got lost in these cards under the fragile psyche of the Medici Family and their money.
Hmmmm know anywhere I can the The Months on the web? I will never be able to get back home at this rate lol. ~Rosanne
You are right of course- this site in Ferrara
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/t/tura/schifano/index.html
But I think that even if these processions were a 'Months Cycle' memory- somehow it got lost in these cards under the fragile psyche of the Medici Family and their money.
Hmmmm know anywhere I can the The Months on the web? I will never be able to get back home at this rate lol. ~Rosanne
Huck
Rosanne said:Here are the other pairings
Do they, maybe, depict the curriculum....
Morgante and Temperance- Grammar with Poetry
Justice and Hanged Man- syllogism logic
Judgement and The Lovers- Music and platonic love
Moon and Star-Astrology
Emperor and Strength-Logic
Pope and Death-History
Chariot and World- Classical literature
Hermit and Tower- Rhetoric
or a better description.....
Chess figures usually know more than 1 pairing - vertical and horizontal.
horizontal:
2 rooks
2 horses
2 bishops
king and queen
8 pawn-symmetrie
vertical
each officer has a pawn
In the reconstruction of the Cary-Yale ...
(compare http://trionfi.com/0/c/2209/ )
... this idea developed. The 7 virtues had to be the pawns addded with a 8th factor. Most plausible "Love" had this position.
Generally it seems, that the 3 theological virtues were replaced by sun-moon-star later ... the precise time is naturally a riddle, also the reasons, why.
But a star isn't in the 16 cards .... and the idea (or the mental experiment) says, that the Charles VI was complete with these cards. So the Charles VI version replaced the theological virtues with Sun, Moon and a third unknown card. Sun and Moon were chosen according to Florentine features (or specific Florentine virtues): The female weaver (Sun card) as a sign of Florentine industry and the pair Toscanelli and Regiomontanus as a sign of Florentine intellectual progress.
Between the other cards of the Charles VI it's difficult to understand, what else Florentine virtue is considered. However, knowledge about the Morgante of Pulci, also for this time exspectable developments in the Florentine carnival festivities, and the problem, how the fool should present a chess officer, make it plausible, that the third Florentine virtue is expressed in the Fool.
Now you see an iconographical pairing between Fool and Temperance: This is possible - the Florentine group of virtues is naturally horizontally mirrored by the cardinal virtues in the pawn-group.
Now you see an iconographical similarity between Moon and Sun - card. But ... this can't be cause of horizontally or vertically pairing. We have recognized, that all 4 virtues also have an iconographcal similarity cause of the polygonal halos, and this should make them a complete group. Naturally we should assume, that Fool-Sun-Moon also have iconographical similarity and perhaps also Love as the fourth - as a group, at least this would be plausible.
You've presented:
were sun and moon seem iconographically strong connected, but the originals ...
... perhaps would suggest, that these 4 might be considered as an iconographical group of 4 (all four have dominant features in the upper half)
In this case my suggestion, that the Fool was offered as a "Florentine virtue", looks wrong, and perhaps we've to exchange this with the Angel.
The Angel I identified as a Rook, then Fool now as a Rook?
Tower-destruction (negative) = Rook
Death (negative) = Knight
Traitor - Hanging Man (negative) = Bishop
Pope = Queen
Emperor = King
Hermit-Time (positive) = Bishop
Chariot-triumphator (positive) = Knight
Fool = Rook
... but you identified from the iconographical point of view Hermit (with a rock beside him) as the partner of Tower, so perhaps this makes more sense:
Tower-destruction (negative) = Rook
Death (negative) = Knight
Traitor - Hanging Man (negative) = Bishop
Pope = Queen
Emperor = King
Fool (as "advisor") = Bishop
Chariot-triumphator (positive) = Knight
Hermit-Time (positive) = Rook (by the Rock at his side)
Then the Fool would contrast the traitor as the two "bishops" beside Emperor and Pope at the positions of Queen and King.
Actually the court juster had the function of an adviser for the Emperor or King. I remember, that the French name for the bishop figure was was Fol ???
Perhaps we should study Italian/French chess names?
