Puzzling the CharlesV1/Griggoneur Yet Again!

[Rosanne]

Lol Debra! It is so hard on this History forum. I would rather someone would post "What a load of crap!" than dead silence- so thank you for your voice.
What started me on this direction was the Santa Parade here in Auckland. The commentary on a pamphlet said that in a 100 years the parade had not changed much except in the minutiae, because all the props were there and they only needed renewing when things got a bit tatty. So I started to look on the web for the oldest floats and Pallium (the tall banners) in Florence for the Feast Day of John the Baptist. I discovered that the Banners were re-cycled as altar cloths and vestments, the painted candles which were painted were very heavy- the heavier the more blessings the giver got, and the gifts included hand painted cards some very large- which were tacked on to the wood parts of the church and the pillars- and some were so secular the clergy got offended- but still sold them on lol. Then I remembered the tack holes in the Visconti and I started to wonder......I have always been fascinated with these Gringonneur Cards and my daughter started sending me these essays published in Italian University Libraries....
I may be adding 2 +2 together and making 5, but I have this deep feeling that the card games used the images from Parade, because everyone recognised the sequence- and the sequence was not in Prayer books and on walls in frescoes except as Triumphs in a classical sense and the cards seem profane not holy....and the parade brings together all the strands we recognise- Saint John the Baptist (the Cathars) ,The astrological aspects of Triumphs and the planetary correspondences- the Victory and the pain of the people, Dante and the poems and the songs etc etc etc.
Of course I don't mind if someone just reads and I did not mean to sound snarky, but a forum is a place to discuss ideas neh? Maybe there should be just a warning that long lists of facts are all that some want- but that is not why I am here- otherwise all this could be done by email and pm (which I am sure is what happens a lot) I have nothing to protect, I don't care if I am way off track- I am interested and curious in an amateur way and I dislike just the sound of my own fingers tap tap tapping away in the wilderness.
Enough of my rant... and back to the cards.. did you know that some of the players on the edifizi were actually naked? and mothers did not mind their children stuck high up on wooden towers on the carraocchio in their alltogether with bows and arrows and wings, sitting amongst cottonwool -like clouds? Darling little putti! Sometimes the floats fell over or caught fire like the the ones involved in the 'Living and the dead'! Strange mothers really. I guess the women were a little peeved, because they were not allowed in the feast day processions, but were allowed secular parades as dressed up dolls covered in Jewels and rich fabric as commercial advertising for wealth and product. Not much changes does it?~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

I don't know, if Walter of Briennne was so important. As far I understood, they sent him home after a short while. They tried to be reigned by a strong hand and it simply wasn't that, what they wanted. And I don't see a constant influence of one family all the time (Albizzi - 100 years). There is a movement and always struggle - 100 years are a long period.

But it seems you got good literature there.

 

[Debra]

I feel awkward about posting on the historical thread because I'm clueless about history except US history, which began yesterday in comparison to what you're discussing here.

I never had an idea about triumphs on parade -- even given our New Orleans Mardi Gras parades -- until I went to Europe and saw costumes for Fasching, the pre-Lenten festival in SE Germany.

And because the US is so secular--despite being the most religious of developed nations -- all these Catholic references simply go right over my nonCatholic nonChristian head. It would never in a million years occur to me to put together a Santa parade with John the Baptist's feast day.

So you and Huck pursue this with occasional input from others here, and know that I and others are also watching with some appreciation from the sidelines.

I do wonder if it's not all a bit "overdetermined." I'm looking at two different Gumppenberg tarots, from 1810 and 1835--quite different images--done by the same hand, for the same purpose--must everything have an intended meaning? Perhaps instead of trying to track the sources, look at the places where there are "free play" in the images--compare Il Matto in the two decks, you can see artistic freedom at work:

The 1810: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/ancient-lombardy/index.shtml

The 1835:
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/soprafino/index.shtml#cards

 

[Rosanne]

Hmmm I wondered too about a 10 year influence of a man lasting so long Huck-but the story of the traitor certainly seemed interesting. Debra, you are right about over determination. I often wonder which came first the chicken or the egg. Have a game- need images- lets take these ones? Have these images- lets make a card game? It is easy when the image is a King and a Queen- but a Hanged Man? By the way there has been no mention of Wheel in any floats, but there is no wheel in these Charles V1 cards either. These cards are different so Huck may be right about the chess- but would the every day player recognise the chess? Especially the foot soldier and the sailor that the later cards were used by in the main. Or were these cards only used in a limited way by a few people- there seems no follow on from them except in cards like the Hanged Man, Emperor, Hermit and Tower. It reminds me of the Sesame Street song..
Which of these things looks like each other, which of these things is not the same at all.. These do not seem a tarrochi game. ~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

I never had an idea about triumphs on parade -- even given our New Orleans Mardi Gras parades -- until I went to Europe and saw costumes for Fasching, the pre-Lenten festival in SE Germany.

Hi Debra,

just today it's the socalled "Rosenmontag", the monday of the Roses and that's the height of carnival. Two days later, "Aschermittwoch", it's over.

The matter between Tarot cards and Trionfi parades (they were not only in carnival, but had various forms), is, that they have appeared in the same time and at the same location and both were relatively new at the same moment. And they had the same signifying name: "Trionfi" as triumphal procession (great events) and "Trionfi cards" as this much smaller part of social reality. Tarot as a name didn't exist. So - there's somehow a relation, maybe not totally direct.

I guess you've in America the real sport Football or Baseball (the "real" thing) and beside of that you've Football or Baseball cards, which are collected by small and old boys just as a small part of the show. Similar should have been the relation between Trionfi as phenomenon of public enjoyment (the great real thing) and these cards, that we research here.

... with our theme we go with our glass to magnify to the small thing and watch the the great ... ... but anyway, we try to understand the context between the both parts, so occasionally we must try to understand also the bigger part to find some true conclusions about the small.

 

[Rosanne]

the relation between Trionfi as phenomenon of public enjoyment (the great real thing) and these cards, that we research here.

... with our theme we go with our glass to magnify to the small thing and watch the the great ... ... but anyway, we try to understand the context between the both parts, so occasionally we must try to understand also the bigger part to find some true conclusions about the small.

Although this is a great statement Huck- the amusing thought did occur to me about the 'Great real thing' and over determination.

 

[Debra]

You're a nut, Rosanne.

 

[OnePotato]

....I may be adding 2 +2 together and making 5, but I have this deep feeling that the card games used the images from Parade, because everyone recognised the sequence- and the sequence was not in Prayer books and on walls in frescoes except as Triumphs in a classical sense and the cards seem profane not holy....and the parade brings together all the strands we recognise- Saint John the Baptist (the Cathars) ,The astrological aspects of Triumphs and the planetary correspondences- the Victory and the pain of the people, Dante and the poems and the songs etc etc etc......

Why do you draw this particular conclusion? (That the cards illustrate the parade.)
As I vaguely suggested earlier, why not a COMMON source for both the parade and the cards?

What did the parade illustrate?
Why did the parade take this particular form and structure?
Is it a model or reflection of something? What?

Rather than baseball cards, how about Christmas cards as a modern example?
Are they based upon the local pageant, or the Nativity?

 

[Rosanne]

Hi OnePotato!
I am not meaning any other cards but these Charles V1- even though there are common elements between these 16 cards and Tarot cards.
These cards I call Trionfi Cards not Tarot anyway.
I think these cards have a particular association with Florence- not anywhere else.
A few years ago, excavations were done under and beside the Cathedral and they found a Church that was dedicated to the Saint Reparata the original patron Saint of the city. Further away where the Roman barracks were they have found a Temple to Mars- This may have been the first sacred building in the area. The area historically was Martial, The God was Martial and echoes of this are still there today with the Red War carriage leading the Parade- and the procession to the Cathedral to pray for help or to celebrate Victory on the same place and in a similar way as if it was still the Temple Of Mars. Many of the echoes are unmistakable in their Martial meaning. Like all European parades, I can see an astrological sequence and celebration of the seasons in this one- but are you speaking about a particular local common source for both this Trionfi Festival and these Trionfi cards? I see a reason why Bulls covered in red pulled a red carriage first and why Death was usually the last carriage and as a general rule I think the origins are astrological and seasonal- but these cards do not portray that. They seem to portray a certain point in the year and wish to commemorate or joke about a particular event.
For me it is 16 Gonfalons (areas/wards/churches) in a parade, showing off their power, their merchandise, and their Florin under the Medici in the usual jesting way of the secular parade that had its roots way back, in an almanac way to physical life on the planet. So the cards of course echo this, but are not this- anymore than they are a Chess Game but may echo Chess.

I agree with the Christmas card analogy! Also how tribute to the King Jesus became mixed with Pagan seasonal celebration and tribute to Saint John the Baptist and gift giving has become the norm. We even tack the cards up on the wall- just like they did at this festival in the Church and maybe even their own homes! It goes without saying they would not have wasted paper with a double page card as we do today.

I would love to hear what you say about these particular cards OnePotato!
~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

In particular...
The Lovers card : Morgantic marriages taking place around 24 June, about love not contract. (a subject all on its own)
The Emperor and Pope cards on a stage as either Mock Court or visiting dignitaries and alluding to the Council of Florence- the Union of Eastern and Western Churches to combat the threat from the Ottomans.
The Death Card has a Eastern dressed rider and the same group of Pope and Emperor on it.(and they are not slain by Death as in other cards)
The Moon card has what appears to have Fichino the Academy teacher and either Lorenzo in his typical red attire and hat or Regiomantus the German Astronomer on it.
The Medici iconology on the Chariot
Taking the Spinner historical symbol when Florence made its money from silk and wool weaving on the Sun card (The wool and Silk gilds were in charge of the leading carriages)
The symbols on the World card
The alluding to the lead carriage by the Fool card that carried the Little Hammer bell/Asses Bell and a specific time of the Florentine Luigi Pulchi and his burlesque epic Morgante. Pulchi's patrons were the Medici Lorenzo in particular.
The look of the small people cards are Burlesque rather than serious as in the Visconti.
The Martial flavour of the large people cards- the Virtues and they are not the theological ones and once again they seem to be speaking about the Council of Florence or the Greek Battle of the Souls (Psychomachia) There are three obvious heavenly Virtues and maybe the Hanged Man is Prudence or the Ethics of Patience and the sacrifice for Peace.
~Rosanne