Are you a Flat World Society Member?

[Lee]

I don't understand why historical facts and divination have to be seen as mutually exclusive. Isn't it possible to be interested in history and also interested in divination?

I feel that the historical facts, far from being dry and lifeless, actually give more depth and life to the subject. The real story is, in my opinion, more interesting than paper-thin daydreams about Gypsies and Egyptians.

-- Lee

 

[Fulgour]

"Ouch!"

The real story is, in my opinion, more interesting than paper-thin daydreams about Gypsies and Egyptians.

Thank you for contributing to the 'benevolent' atmosphere.

 

[Lee]

But you see, my dear Fulgour, I simply said that in my opinion, one thing is more interesting than another, which is surely an unobjectionable statement. Whereas, in your many statements such as your previous post:

Some people can only see what they can touch,
but others can touch what no one else can see.

you imply that some people (presumably including yourself) are more perceptive and generally better people than those dry, dusty historians, which doesn't do much to contribute to the benevolent atmosphere.

By the way, I really take exception to the kind of stereotyping that I see in many posts in this thread (from several different posters). In truth, there are exciting historians and boring anti-historians. We're all just people, with different interests and preferences.

-- Lee

 

[Huck]

So far as Tarot being or ever having been a game
I think the usual pattern goes something like this:

1) The historian contends that tarot was a game.
2) The historian researches the oldest cards and,
3) Tarot is dismissed as but an historical curiosity.

But we the living can see the Tarot in action now,
and exactly so we can see it used for Divination...

Some people can only see what they can touch,
but others can touch what no one else can see.

... that's an artificial conflict. History is history, that means, that what have really been. If it was used as a game, there was a game. If it was used for divination, then there was divination. We definitely know, that there were forms of card playing within 15th century and we definitely know, that there were forms of divination in 15th century, and we definitely know even for sure, that there were forms of card divination in 15th century.

Naturally history engages only, when there is something factual to describe. It would be asked too much, that history describes hypotheses from 20th century as facts in the description of the state of 15th century. But history could describe hypotheses of 20th century about the state of 15th century - as they are a fact and are documented.

As for card divination in 15th century ... I've my material not at hand, but we've a text from 1480 (?) in Germany (Mainz), which presents a primitive form of card divination. This sounds harmless, but you only have to think about the following comparition:

How many percent of all existent books of the year 2006 are focussed on card divination?
How many percent of all existent books of the year 1480 are focussed on card divination?

Well, of course I don't know any correct number of both calculations, and even I dare not to estimate it.
But I could imagine, that the second calculation leads to an higher worth than the first.

So, that's what history says. A simple factual calculation to the question to the state of card divination in 15th century.

History is simply a methode to look at past things and matters without preoccupation (as far as possible) to the possible results of a research.
Just a simple ethical condition, which has as princip not to talk bullshit.

And to speculation, interpretation and even some phantasy: that are natural tools in research, actually any stupid idea or question is allowed. Nonetheless any stupid or insightful idea and question is controlled without mercy by already worked out material and knowledge, as far as possible. If history would say always "yes, yes, wonderful", it quickly would be degraded in its worth.

 

[Fulgour]

Studying fragments of remnants may be interesting,
but just like any old history book off the shelf ~flat.

Even people who experience an event first hand can't
tell the whole story and an after that fact overview is
hardly going to be the stuff of every day life, as lived.

In my mind, the Tarot precedes history by thousands
of years~it precedes astrology, and mathematics too.

Something that made a difference and had a purpose~
an every day usefulness, is what the Tarot is all about.

And that is, Divination... from the eternal "Who am I"
to the everlasting "What is going to happen" it gives.

 

[Huck]

That was you describe and what has really the described "deep qualities" are

1. number systems or mathematical basic systems, whose structures could be used ... for instance ... in divination.
2. "archetypical features" of general character: birth, death, fist sexual experiences, marrige etc. also special role, the "father", the "mother", the "son", the "daughter", the "couple", the "old man", the "old woman", the "teacher", the "hero" the "bad one" etc. etc.

The "tarot" might be identified as a good representation of this "deeper orders" ... but if it really is, that's a matter of interpretation and opinion and from the historical side you'll surely hear the comment "dear Tarot, you're surely not the only one". And to perceive this, you may just look around a little bit and you discover some more divination schemes with alternative and different sorting system and also "with mysteries and beautiful qualities", ready also to impress with fascination.

As you describe your attitude, it's an ideological enthisiastic over-interpretation, not neutral evaluating the matter. That's not history, that's special lover behaviour ... oh well, why not a little "lover behaviour" if one really loves something, but surely you've distance enough to know, that lovers are not always taken totally serious in their romanticism.

 

[gregory]

I’ve found that many over on this side of the forum are not hungry for knowledge – they have forgotten more than I shall ever learn, and as long as I’m not supporting their pet theory, than I’m worthy of denigration.

I never expected to post in the historical area.... It is forbidding, to say the least. And I don't know anything much.... But I think we have each of us forgotten more than more than we ever knew, never mind more than we shall ever learn.

I dropped over here to learn something- though I confess that the Flat Earth Society had a particular appeal - the name reminds me of the Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives, of which I am a founder member....

I learned that there are a lot of people who seem to be angry rather than communicative of what they know. Pity, that. Everyone seems to have something to say, and I feel sure that 90% of it is stuff I didn't know, but....

I think I will go read a book instead. It seems to like itself

 

[Fulgour]

regardez l'eau

...also special role, the "father", the "mother", the "son", the "daughter", the "couple", the "old man", the "old woman", the "teacher", the "hero" the "bad one" etc. etc.

I didn't mention the Mlle Lenormand...
(how could I be so stupid?)
But YOU did! Thanks ~ so much!

The real story is, in my opinion, more interesting than paper-thin daydreams about... Egyptians.

I didn't mention the Egyptians...
(how could I be so stupid?)
But YOU did! Thanks ~ so much!

 

[Rosanne]

I never expected to post in the historical area.... It is forbidding, to say the least. And I don't know anything much.... But I think we have each of us forgotten more than more than we ever knew, never mind more than we shall ever learn.

I dropped over here to learn something- though I confess that the Flat Earth Society had a particular appeal - the name reminds me of the Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives, of which I am a founder member....

I learned that there are a lot of people who seem to be angry rather than communicative of what they know. Pity, that. Everyone seems to have something to say, and I feel sure that 90% of it is stuff I didn't know, but....

I think I will go read a book instead. It seems to like itself

I gotta love you gregory- that is exactly what I meant for the reason of the thread. You know this place is not owned by a small group(and a rude and objectionable few at that)- shame they do not realise that- I have gone back to self liking books as well ! ~Rosanne

 

[Huck]

... Well, I for my part know, that this is a peaceful place and I know, that waves are only waves, ... and also, that it's not necessary to misunderstand a joke, ... so these current young persons in regression mode perhaps might consider that they are in danger to overinterprete specific passages.