Fire, Water, Air, Earth

[magpie9]

LOL immoral swords/air element? wouldn't go as far as that - in fact i would say exact opposite - because they are moral that's what gets them in such a fix much of the time

A-moral, not IM-moral. And I never said they were unethical. They're ethical, but the end can justify the means. If they had to kill one baby to save the world from a terrible disaster, they would do it. They would deeply regret the neccesity, but they would do it.

 

[firecatpickles]

I have gleaned a few things:

FIRE, passion; PENTACLES; (physical) station-in-life; WATER, emotion; AIR; thought/spirituality.

Chakras

FIRE EARTH WATER AIR
Red/Orange==>Yellow/Green ==>Green/Blue ==>Indigo/Violet

Virtues and Sins

FIRE EARTH WATER AIR
Sacrifice/Anger Acumen/Greed Fluidity/Sloth Spirituality/Gluttony

Brian Williams has a nice take on it in his Minchiate Tarot book.

 

[pleroma]

so about the differences between air-swords and fire-wands if i understand what was written air-swords is the kind of thought that divides things. it places clear boundaries around things, sees absolutes. in that way air-swords are logical and highly moral in the sense of absolutism/idealism. fire-wands are thoughtful but in a more dynamic or fluid sense. they seem more concerned with creative thought, making and doing, rather than dividing and surverying or calculating. fire is the spark or the will, that generative force, while air is the mind or meaning which touches and grasps all things. is that closer? and how does that help with the interpretation of the pips and court cards which arent the aces?

eta: kilts knave basically answered my last question already, the virtues/vices correspondences really illuminate the path shown in each suits pips. ill have to check out that author.
-nick

 

[star-lover]

A-moral, not IM-moral. And I never said they were unethical. They're ethical, but the end can justify the means. If they had to kill one baby to save the world from a terrible disaster, they would do it. They would deeply regret the neccesity, but they would do it.

oops sorry, i did read it the wrong way, yes i see what you mean now

 

[firecatpickles]

Numerology and Elements

Is there a relationship between numerology and elements that may be helpful here? I know it would help me. Everything is interrelated. Who is a numerologist?

 

[Rosanne]

To me when I see wands/batons, the sign of Fire, for me I see creativity, inspiration, ambition, energy, enthusiasm and passion and power.
Opposite to that I see Cups/chalices the sign of water as the emotional side to life- our sensitivity, how vulnerable we are and how self aware. Love is only one emotion.
When I see Coins/pentacles, the sign of Earth, I see our material world- wealth and possessions and our self worth- and opposite to that I see Swords, the sign of Air, the mental aspect of my life with the positive sides of strength and courage to counter the negative aspects of pain and suffering anger and aggression.
So the fire in my belly is wands, the attitude in my head is swords, the emotions of my heart are Cups and where I do all this is where I stand on Earth= Pentacles. Hope that helps ~Rosanne

 

[Rosanne]

Just to rant about the elements a little more-
Lets say you are doing a reading about a creative project and you want to see the aspects of the elements- heres one way of looking at the cards
The project needs energy (Wands/fire) to much emotion (Cups/water) will put the fire out, the right amount creates the steam of energy, to many earthly concerns (Coins/earth) will smother your project. You need to use your head (Swords/air), as fire needs air to burn- but too much intellect will blow the fire out. Just like too much emotion wasted on material things (Water on Earth) will turn your project into mud. It is all a matter of Balance is'nt it?~Rosanne

 

[FearfulSymmetry]

Tarot didn't even exist during the time of the pythagorean elements.

I am no historian, but I would say that this is more an argument in favor of the suits being based on the elements than not; the knowledge was out there and maybe even in vogue given the religious leanings of art in the middle ages (a divine trinity + earth).
Also I think there is evidence of the playing card suits coming from the east which also had an elemental structure.

Ultimately, does it even matter what the first person who did it had in mind? It fits a spiritual world view so well....

Also, I know there is always a lot of confusion regarding the Fire/Wand, Air/Sword attribution. Here is my take on it.

From what I have observed the Wands/Fire is the most usual corespondence (and the one I prefer) and it is the one favored by most occultists.

Sword/Fire, Wand/Air is usually favored by wiccans and neo-pagans. I think that is because wiccans have different magickal tools they use to symbolize the 4 elements like in the creation of an alter, and they use daggers to symbolize fire and a wand for air (if I remember correctly!). You can see how this would cause some confusion! And those with that spiritual lean have incorporated that into their decks, some of which are popular.

My ideas about them are this:

Fire is creativity and the Will, the masculine aspect of duality, yang. It is represented by a Wand because of its phallic nature (resemblance to a penis) , its connection to the life-force, notice how many wands are illustrated with green leaves, and of course the image of a wizard or magician using a wand as an extension and amplifier of his Will. The Wand is associated with the 4 Kings. The Wands/Fires counterpart is the Cup/Water, the receiving womb who is also symbolized by the 4 Queens.

Air represents the intellect. The ability to examine and decide. It is cutting and sharp, think of the Queen of Swords. It is represented by the 4 Knights. I have heard it compared to the warrior class as opposed to the ruling class of the Kings. One of the reasons I really like a sword for Air is because of its dual nature like the 2 edges of a blade. On the Tree of life it is Tipareth, a pivot point between God and the manifested earth and I picture it moving between t he two like a lightning strike, which is the equalization between the earth and clouds which have a positive and negative charge. Very active, concise and even extreme. I also like to think of Fire and Water being the first duality, the yin and the yang, the King and Queen, and if they have sex they have a child with a body (earth or pentacles) and a soul (Swords/Air). So pentacles/Earth is like a second generation Yin/feminine and Swords/Air a second generation Yang/Masculine.

The elements in the Thoth's court cards are different, mind you.

I could go on for hours about this but will let it be at that!

 

[FearfulSymmetry]

Is there a relationship between numerology and elements that may be helpful here? I know it would help me. Everything is interrelated. Who is a numerologist?

Yes. I would say:

1 = Fire/Wands
2 = Water/Cups
3 = Air/Swords

4 = Pentacles (or coins, disks etc.) / Earth

Technically there is only 3 elements, Fire, Water, and Air, Earth is a combination of the first 3. Picture them something like this:

1 fire 2 water


3 air


4 earth

Does that help?

 

[Sulis]

Yes. I would say:

1 = Fire/Wands
2 = Water/Cups
3 = Air/Swords

4 = Pentacles (or coins, disks etc.) / Earth

Technically there is only 3 elements, Fire, Water, and Air, Earth is a combination of the first 3. Picture them something like this:

1 fire 2 water


3 air


4 earth

Does that help?

Now you're going to get confused because you'll soon find that everyone has their own personal correspondences.

I use the same correspondences with tarot as I do with magic.

To me Air is always the beginning:

1. Air - East - beginnings, dawn, spring
2. Fire - South - middle, noon, summer
3. Water - West, harvest, evening, autumn
4. Pentacles - North, endings, manifestation, night, winter.

Sulis xx