Fire, Water, Air, Earth

[rachelcat]

1. Air - East - beginnings, dawn, spring
2. Fire - South - middle, noon, summer
3. Water - West, harvest, evening, autumn
4. Pentacles - North, endings, manifestation, night, winter.

Right now I'm sticking with Golden Dawn/Book T/Thoth seasons, which are based on the fixed zodiac signs (middle of the seasons):
Spring - Taurus, Earth, Pentacles
Summer - Leo, Fire, Wands
Autumn - Scorpio, Water, Cups
Winter - Aquarius, Air, Swords

If we use cardinal signs (at the beginning of the seasons), it would be:
Spring - Aries, Fire
Summer - Cancer, Water
Autumn - Libra, Air
Winter - Capricorn, Earth

I've been toying with which element goes with which season INTUITIVELY, and I have the most trouble with water. Summer and autumn are dry, and in winter the streams and rivers are low because they are frozen up in the mountains. So water for spring. (Water comes from springs!) But as a beginning, spring seems to demand a more active (masculine) element! But I do like earth for spring, for farming and planting!

Ack! So, I guess it's back to the astrological method for me!

 

[Sulis]

Summer and autumn are dry, and in winter the streams and rivers are low because they are frozen up in the mountains.

*lol* - you should live in the UK - you'd have no trouble linking water to both summer and autumn then

Love Sulis xx

 

[firecatpickles]

*lol* - you should live in the UK - you'd have no trouble linking water to both summer and autumn then

Love Sulis xx

Or South Florida!

 

[kwaw]

For older non-scenic pips only I use:

Long suits = those that run in order from 1 - 10, from the unity of the monad to plurality, seperative, strife; one being the monad, the 'good', 1 - 10 away from the 'good' = [-].

Swords-Water a 'negative' element, a long suit = [--] as most 'negative' suit, North, the place associated in many traditions with 'evil', ditto midnight, winter; nature in hibernation, at rest; storage, running on reserves.

Batons - Fire a 'positive' element, a long suit = [+-] dawn, spring, east, nature sprouting, planting

Short or round suits run in order 10-1, unitive, love; towards the 'good' = [+]

Coins - Earth, a 'negative' element, short suit = [-+] noon, south, summer, nature in full bloom

Cups - Air, a 'positive' element, short suit = [++] dusk, autumn, west, harvest

9s = the manifestation of the 'superlative' [superlative=3, of which 9 is the 'square' = manifestation], hence:

9 Swords [--] = the 'worst' card, manifestation of worst fears
9 cups [++] = the 'best' card, manifestation of hopes and dreams, the 'wish' card.

A bit medieval in its simplistic division into 'good' and 'bad' for todays tastes probably.

Kwaw

 

[firecatpickles]

A bit medieval in its simplistic division into 'good' and 'bad' for todays tastes probably.

This system intrigues me, but I must say I don't quite follow it yet. Can you start another thread about Numerology in tarot, please? Maybe pop me an IM to let me know? (I' don't want to hijack this thread about elements to talk numbers.)

Thanks, Reece

 

[thinbuddha]

WANDS/FIRE - Work (to be done), actions, etc. "What steps do I need to take to get X done?"
COINS/EARTH - Well-being (things already established), job/career, health, etc. "What do I need to know about the neighbourhood that I'm thinking of moving into?"
CUPS/WATER - Love, emotions, relationships, inner-self, etc. "How can I improve my relationship with so-and-so?"
SWORDS/AIR - Thoughts, ideas, concepts, musings, plans, etc."What should I expect if I follow through with this idea/plan/thought?"


Maybe???

Ahh thanks- For some reason, I was having troubles with this, but this seems reasonable.

 

[kwaw]

Long suits = those that run in order from 1 - 10, from the unity of the monad to plurality, seperative, strife; one being the monad, the 'good', 1 - 10 away from the 'good' = [-].

Swords-Water a 'negative' element, a long suit = [--] as most 'negative' suit, North, the place associated in many traditions with 'evil', ditto midnight, winter; nature in hibernation, at rest; storage, running on reserves.

Kwaw

We may also note that in Monde Primitif Mellet describes the swords as representing misfortune and evil, with the sole exception of the ace. We may note in relation to this that the marseille swords are curved sacacen swords, in those times symbolic of the heathen and infidel enemies of christianity; the 'straight' ace represents the 'one' the 'good' the christian victor; the rest the christian [straight sword] increasingly surrounded by the anti-christian [saracen swords], the swords run ace to 10, from the good to bad, away from god, in eschalogical terms to increasingly apparent bad times symbolic of the leading to the end of the world, marked by disaster, war and pestilence.

Mellet also claims that the seemingly arbitrary dm's of the then cartomancers still retain a symbolic relationship with the suits of their italian origins [a point recently reiterated by Ronald Decker in 'Art and Arcana'].

Kwaw

 

[Fulgour]

Keeping it Simple

FIRE Spiritual ~ enthusiasm
WATER Emotional ~ intuition
AIR Mental ~ intellectual
EARTH Physical ~ tangible

 

[firemaiden]

Actually I'd say there were five elements - air, earth, water, fire and spirit - the last being represented by the trumps.

Actually, I think last time we counted it was up to 118.



Oh, whoops, we're not talking about scientific elements... but why not? wouldn't that be cool? a deck with 118 suits, one for each element?

Anyhow, I like to be snarky about the "elements" because I like to challenge sometimes what we so unquestioningly accept as some kind of truth that there are four or five "elements" when what we are talking about is one-time scientific speculation with its origin in antiquity, which has now been entirely superceded. Of course in tarot, these four "elements" are just metaphors for something else - an attempt to divide the things of the world into four neat boxes.

You know how I feel about boxes, right?

I mean, just for the sake of conversation, lets say we get "cups are feelings" and "swords are thoughts"... well, can you really have a feeling unconnected to a thought? and vice versa? I consider "thought versus feeling" to be a false dichotomy. Our our thoughts can be generated by feelings, and our feelings can be generated by our thoughts...

And if you were to cut your brain off of your body, would you still "feel" emotions? I don't think so..., however if you had an artificial heart, you would still be able to go on feeling emotions - because emotions are located in your brain.

I think it was jmd or maybe Diana who said it was more useful to focus on the meanings of the suits themselves, rather than their varying and contentious "elemental" associations. Thusly, we think about the properties of cups, they are recipients, they can be drunk out of, poured from, bear water, wine, or poison... whereas swords can slice and dice as well as protect, they can penetrate through murk like light, sear like lightening. Wands seem to be sturdy, a bit gross, blunt, not too easy to weild, are they clubs? torches? Coins are legal tender, agent of exchange, and thereby of change but also of stablilty, of growth and gain, but also loss...

Just some thoughts.

 

[thinbuddha]

Anyhow, I like to be snarky about the "elements" because I like to challenge sometimes what we so unquestioningly accept as some kind of truth that there are four or five "elements" when what we are talking about is one-time scientific speculation with its origin in antiquity, which has now been entirely superceded. Of course in tarot, these four "elements" are just metaphors for something else - an attempt to divide the things of the world into four neat boxes.

I appreciate your snarkiness (I really do- no snark intended) but it is misguided. The "elements" of the alchemists and ancient philosophers was just that- a philosophy. They viewed things as being imbued with the "spirit of fire and water" (for example). None of them thought that you could actually break something down into, say, 5 parts water, 2 parts fire and 3 parts earth. Their concept of "element" was very different than our own. It was a philosophy, and it is still alive today (not just in tarot)- it has in no way been superceeded by scinece, because it is not trying to answer the same questions that science is trying to answer.

As for the other suggestions- about ignoring the elemental aspect and focusing on suit meanings- well- I am not ignoring suit meanings- this elemental study feeds suit meanings and *adds* meaning to the suits. It mimics the interactions you are talking about. Of course thoughts aren't purely mental- some come from emotional centers, some from physical centers- the elements (as all of tarot) is just a tool to represent ideas that are more complex than 4 elements (or 78 cards).