Is the Hierophant a Dictator?

[Crowqueen]

Have to disagree with your there, Crowqueen. Inquisitions are usually found in the church--which often had it's own tortures and torture chambers. ... religion we don't want to follow...as some Romans tried to do to the Christians, and so many Christans, alas, did to pagans and Jews around the world.

I wasn't really saying that the Church was innocent of crimes. I said that politics - which is what the Inquisition, theocracies, emperor-worship and other bad aspects of religion actually are - gets in the way of real spiritual growth. Jesus - the Jesus whom I worship, at least - was not responsible for the pillage of the Crusades any more than Mohammed was responsible for 9/11.

It is wrong to ascribe negative traits to one particular religion without examining others in the same light. That is what saddens me about the way Christianity has allowed itself to be portrayed, and often people are referring not to the Hierophants - or High Priestesses; there are even a lot of men in the church I know who I would ascribe to the HP rather than the Hierophant! - but to the Emperors.

Anglicanism in rural areas of England is actually reviving some of the more pagan aspects of the old church, including the rites performed to bless farms. While urban churches are usually more dogmatic and turned me off religion for a while, coming to a rural parish and seeing just how much spirituality - HP aspect - still exists in the church, has brought me back to my mother church without having to go through the pain of rejecting what I was brought up in.

BTW, the Queen may be the Defender of the Faith and technically head of the Church of England, but I would say, as a Briton, that the Church plays a very small role in actual government. There are countries like Poland where officially church and state are separate (a legacy of the Communist era) but the Church has more of a hands on, Emperor role. Again, however, the spirituality/piety of Polish Catholicism did impress me quite a bit when I lived there.

 

[Adjustment]

Nevada it is nice to see you

I think, for me, you have just hit the nail on the head in regards to why The Hierophant spoke to me as a dictator.

Just to clarify, I work for a huge spiritual organization (actually I suppose even that is debatable) and there has been more than one person of recent who have been portraying those exact qualities, and I think even the organization itself.

Sad, but true

I have seen and experience the same thing happen in many groups and organization. No wonder the hierophant is my personality and soul card, interesting, the hierophant beside being my personality card it is also my year card for this year.

 

[Thirteen]

It is wrong to ascribe negative traits to one particular religion without examining others in the same light.

I'm not trying to do that. But examining others in the same light you do end up with certain religions where killing other people, brutally and horribly and without mercy, is mandated *by god* in sacred texts. Which means it's part of the spirituality.

There are religions where the founders and holy books really are responsible for the crimes of their followers NOT because the followers misinterpeted those books or have political reasons for doing what they're doing, but because the religion is fully in favor of such acts. People do sacrifice other people on altars after all. And pulling the still living heart out of a man to offer to one's god can be a "spiritual" act.

But, in a way, that's beside the point.

I said that politics - which is what the Inquisition, theocracies, emperor-worship and other bad aspects of religion actually are - gets in the way of real spiritual growth. Jesus - the Jesus whom I worship, at least - was not responsible for the pillage of the Crusades any more than Mohammed was responsible for 9/11.

The Hierophant is the spiritual leader who creates (as prophet) or interpets a prophet's spiritual teachings. And so YES, HE can be responsible for the crimes if his own spiritual beliefs lead him to reinterpet or misinterpet those teachings or create his own. The original Crusades started because the POPE said that Jersuleum needed to be taken back and any who did so would be blessed. That was how he interpeted the will of God.

Now he might have had some political intent behind that, but I seriously doubt that he didn't fully believe it in a spritual sense. You can argue that he was horribly wrong in his interpetation of Christianity, but that doesn't make him any less a Hierophant. A spiritual leader saying such a thing because of spiritual beliefs. And, therefore, responsible for the crimes.

No. Jesus was not responsible. But the Pope, the Hierophant, was.

 

[firemaiden]

I don't see why he can't be the prophet... is there a law against it? Anyway, what is a prophet, if not the human interpreter of some other Source. I see the Hierophant as human incarnation of spirit, and a person who is capable of chanelling and transmitting spirit to others.

 

[firecatpickles]

Firemaiden said:

I don't see why he can't be the prophet... [emphasis mine]

I don't either: One man's prophet is another man's saviour...

KK

 

[Thirteen]

Different types of Prophets

I don't see why he can't be the prophet... is there a law against it? Anyway, what is a prophet, if not the human interpreter of some other Source. I see the Hierophant as human incarnation of spirit, and a person who is capable of chanelling and transmitting spirit to others.

I thought about that myself and I'll modify my original post. I can certainly see a prophet as a Hierophant.

Not all Prophets, however, are Hierophants. It depends on the type of prophet. There are prophets who, live alone out in the desert, writing down their spiritual insights, seeing only those kings and warriors who come looking for them. Or wandering, blind, like Tiresias. In such a case, the Hermit would stand for that prophet. Solitary, maybe a wanderer, maybe blind--but there's an internal lantern by which they can see what others cannot. And then there are Sybil-like prophets in caves, or Delphic oracles, the High Priestess type prophets who sometimes talk in riddles. And there are prophets who, Jesus-like, endure and sacrifice in order to find greater truths for their people, and are more the Hanged Man than Hierophant.

And there are prophets who lay out the tools and possiblities for their people and let the people themselves carry on from there. Like the Magician. I kinda think Moses was more a Magician Prophet than a Hierophant, turnings sticks into snakes, bringing plagues, parting seas and presenting his people with tablets...all the tricks and tools to the job of connecting them to their God. But he was never a High Priest, was he? In the end, he stayed behind, never going to the promised land, letting others take on the task of being the priests to his people.

I think Mohammad fits what I would define as the Hierophant prophet, not merely a spiritual conduit but a spiritual LEADER. Because the Hierophant card is almost always shown enthroned with acolytes kneeling at his feet. He is, at this point at least, not a Hermit or Hanged Man, or even Magician standing before his audience wowing them. He is much closer to a teacher and leader, instructing and advicing them, making decisions for them and the spiritual community.

This, I think, distinguishes whether or not a certain prophet is also a Hierophant. IMHO, of course

 

[Umbrae]

What I really love, are certain authors and readers who have lovely ‘wrap it up with pink love and set it free’ interpretations of the entire Tarot, (“Oh Death is simply a transformation, dressed in red with a touch of cyan trim…”) except the Emperor and the Hierophant.

They see them as Negative, Cruel, The Boss, The Tyrant, Unreasonable Unhappy, and Nasty…

Kinda telling really.

The hierophant is a metaphor.

As a metaphor it can stand for a prophet just fine. I can look at that same prophet and see either a hermit or a hierophant depending on what he or she is doing at the time!

At Mohammed, like Jesus, and Joseph Smith – all were at times a hierophant, at times a hermit, and at times the Tower.

We open our own doors. The Hierophant only helps us understand that.

But guys – it’s 2006 and to bring in the negative dictatorial church rules the world viewpoint is to look backwards in time with modern shaded lenses.

How about thinking of him as a Guru? He’s kind, loving, helps others, recognizes needs and does what he can to provide.

Oh…and the guru has no gender.

And neither the Pope nor the Hierophant have anything to do with inquisitions (in the Tarot) – That’s the realm of the Devil (Tied to an idea without a clue).

 

[Thirteen]

And neither the Pope nor the Hierophant have anything to do with inquisitions (in the Tarot) – That’s the realm of the Devil (Tied to an idea without a clue).

On the contrary--the Pope with his kneeling acolytes is reminiscent of the Devil with his two captives--as both are also reminiscent of the Lovers. I'd say that the reversed Hierophant could easily be a substitute for The Devil.

When the Devil has already been set out in a reading, and the cards need to tell you about an inquisition, why NOT the reversed Hierophant? It doesn't make sense to me that only ONE card can stand for an inquisitor. And certainly the Hierophant, with good intentions or not good intentions, is one to ask questions of those he is suppose to spiritually lead and teach.

And I think you know, Umbrae, I am NOT one of those who think all the cards but Emperor and Hierophant are sweetness and light. Though I've been arguing the one side in this thread, I can certainly argue the other, and easily. All cards have positive and negative traits, all cards can offer readings and implications that span a range of meanings from the very best to the very worst.

However, while we're on the subject, I think you give us readers too little credit on that score. It is, yes, personally and psychologically telling that a lot of us aren't comfortable with Emperor or Hierophant. It likely says a lot about our feelings toward authority, organized religions, etc. These, however, are men in power, in command over others. They can use that power to start crusades or wars. So when we see cards of men in power, it only makes sense to feel wary towards them. It is far, far too easy for that power to be abused--whether that man be a president or guru.

And is it so shocking that tarot readers would be especially wary of a card that's often called (and looks like) The Pope--given that religious people in power have often gotten tarot readers burned at the stake or just thrown in jail for reading cards? Perhaps the trouble people have with the Hierophant says nothing about them personally, and more about the fact that we are so often told by religious folk: "My Minster says people who read tarot cards are the spawns of satan!"

Just the other day, a devout Catholic told me she's never touch a deck of tarot cards for fear of losing her soul. In short, I really don't think that feelings of uneasiness toward the Hierophant, however rooted in a misunderstanding of the card's true meaning, are unwarrented. In fact, it may be very rational and sane to view such cards with caution.

 

[Umbrae]

...And I think you know, Umbrae, I am NOT one of those who think all the cards but Emperor and Hierophant are sweetness and light….

However, while we're on the subject, I think you give us readers too little credit on that score. It is, yes, personally and psychologically telling that a lot of us aren't comfortable with Emperor or Hierophant. It likely says a lot about our feelings toward authority, organized religions, etc. These, however, are men in power, in command over others. They can use that power to start crusades or wars. So when we see cards of men in power, it only makes sense to feel wary towards them. It is far, far too easy for that power to be abused--whether that man be a president or guru.

I know you are not a 'sweetness and pink light', never meant to imply you were.

I really have to take issue with “I think you give us readers too little credit on that score” I’m sorry – I am a reader. I am a reader too. Don’t try to put me ‘elsewhere’ other than right in the same park as you. I am a reader...

And IF one has uncomfortable feelings about men in power – deal with it, and get over it.

What about women in power? Are women managers, teachers, and politicians free from evil and corruption?

Sorry – Evil knows no gender.

Tarot card meanings are NOT static. What a card means today ain’t what it means tomorrow.

So nope – Hierophant don’t mean squat. It’s not even male. It’s what you see at the time…

Know what I see?


V



The Hierophant and the Emperor can be just as evil, nasty, backstabbing, manipulative, and sexually abusive as the High Priestess and the Empress.

 

[Thirteen]

I really have to take issue with “I think you give us readers too little credit on that score” I’m sorry – I am a reader. I am a reader too. Don’t try to put me ‘elsewhere’ other than right in the same park as you. I am a reader...

Take issue if you like but I you didn't sound like you were including yourself in that statement about those who have a problem with the Emperor/Hieropant. I'll happily apologize if you were including yourself.

What about women in power? Are women managers, teachers, and politicians free from evil and corruption?

Begs the question. Would I worry if I pulled the Empress or High Priestess as a boss? Sure. They can be awful, too. But the majority of those with real power are men. A HUGE majority and that's the way it's been for thousands of years. The most powerful and richest folk in the world are all men. The most powerful religions are dominated by men, and in most of those religions, women aren't allowed in the upper eschalons. And thus, men, by default if nothing else, are the ones who have power and so can abuse power.

So, it's no surprise if we're a little more wary about men in power than women in power. There aren't that many women with that kind of power.

So, sorry, not easy to "get over" our wariness of men in power.

If we're taking exception to things, I take exception to that. To your flippantly telling us all to "get over it." If a group of men rape a woman, than she's not going to be comfortable around men for a while. She's not going to "get over it" even if she knows in her heart and mind that not all men are rapists. Even if she knows that women can be as evil as men. There are valid reasons for men and women to feel uncertain about powerful men and I'm pretty disappointed that the best advice you can give readers with such uncertainties is something so obnoxius, flippant and callous as "deal with it."