Is the Hierophant a Dictator?

[Elven]

Comparing a Hierophant to somebody who blows up, kills murders and rapes? Leave bombing out of this.

Hi Umbrae - Im thinking this was about the post I wrote. So I thought I should reply - I didnt say he was a bomber - I was talking about his beliefs, his words, faith and justification - how he sees the world.

I was trying to relay a situation of where someone might justify their enlightened higher self and been seen as a person of deep Spirituality and community.

The bombing is the consequence of others, who wish to replace their own responsibility for their actions to been seen in a greater Spititual light by God. The persons who rape, bomb, kills etc .... no they are not right, but they believe they are.

You miss my point Umbrae - the person (gender aside) does not do these things - though the person will not condem the actions of others because it is not part of the 'system' of those ground beliefs.

The question is asking is the Heirophant a dictator? Can he been seen in this light. .. and I still feel that depends on whether or not you see the card as a person - or what it is actually aligned to - might be spirituality or community as you mention, then the dictator aspect would need to be looked at from that angle?

Though Im trying not to classify the point at all - it is an aspect of the Hierophantiff, given as an example - as there are those who would see this person as their path to enlightenment and inner sustenance. Its no to say that the Heirophant is even a person, but a situation or an issue. They would see him as an 'aspect' to their attainment. They follow and give their commitment. You nor I could not change their minds. As I said there is an unseen threshold, what a person follows as a path to spititually needs to be examined at some stage - and that is sometimes not until they reach that threshold - that doorway.

I was trying to show a slither of the broader aspect of this card in discussion and example relevant to the question. Even the word dictator is broad enough add that to the card - and yes I can see an aspect of both Hierophant and Dictator - but only if that was the prodominant aspect I was intuitively being given in the reading - I would be considering the implications of the 'Hierophant' on may level related to its broad traditional meaning.

Sorry if I didnt explain myself properly Im not sure I have here either actually LOL!!

Blessings
Elven x

 

[Thirteen]

Comparing corporate America to spiritual growth is a mixing of metaphors designed to obfuscate and promote gender bias.

Comparing Michael Eisner to the Hierophant? Sorry, I have to call you out on that one – that’s freaking lame.

I wasn't comparing Eisner to the Heiophant nor mixing metaphors. I just wasn't clear. I don't know about you, but over the last few posts I've been discussing MEN IN POWER, not just the Hierophant. And that includes the EMPEROR--which by the way YOU brought onto the playing field. I used the example to show how the Emperor (a man in power) could take something loved by a whole group of people and make it miserable for them. And how hard it was for them do to anything about it. Just wait for a change in power.

The Hierophant has similar power, only more so. People have placed in his hands the faith they love. The Church they trust. If we go to the pedophile priest situation in the Catholic Church, we find that most Catholics haven't lost their faith. But it's been badly shaken and damaged and NOT because of what the priest did...but because of what the HIEROPHANT did...meaning the bishops and pope. Those who could have done something about these priests but didn't--who, even worse, used their power to pay off lawsuits in secret and move the priests around.

That is what has shaken the faith. Misusing that power leaves many Catholics, who still go to Church, with damaged faith. They were not able to trust the highest guardians of that faith. The caretakers of the Church's spirituality who were suppose to maintain its values and morals. Who, above all else, were suppose to look out for them.

Unlike Eisner, the Emperor, the damage these Hierophants did could last a lifetime. Again, I don't see why it's so unreasonable or even prejudicial to be wary of men with that kind of power, men in a position of great trust. From the perspective of a reader, rather than someone meditating on life and the universe, the Hierophant will, in my readings, often stand for a real minster, guru or yoga teacher. A human being not an angel or god or spirit. Whatever spiritual insights this human being might be privy to, there is a very real possiblity that this person is still subject to human weaknesses, cruelty, stupidity and prejudices. He may follow his own desires in his maintainance of community morals, traditions and values, and thus, do great damage to church, faith and community.

Why doesn't this make sense?

 

[Umbrae]

I see the Hierophant as an individual who helps with growth in the Spiritual world (and growth in the community in the mundane world).

I do not see the Hierophant in a fear based manner, nor do I see it as 'male'.

 

[webmuse]

I get it. Eisner is the Emperor, Jerry Falwell is the Heirophant, Oprah is the Empress, and I am the Hermit, turning off my TV and making a cup of tea before settling down to read a book on loan from the library.

All is perfectly clear to me

 

[webmuse]

I see the Hierophant as an individual who helps with growth in the Spiritual world (and growth in the community in the mundane world).

I do not see the Hierophant in a fear based manner, nor do I see it as 'male'.

I agree with this as well. Sometimes. Sometimes the Hierophant, particularly in reversals but also depending on other cards, can be dogmatic and domineering. And I'm someone who LIKES this card. It's just its dark side. I've known a lot of wise and intelligent professors who can sometimes feel self-righteous and self-entitled to power that they shouldn't necessarily have. They also tend to put tradition, academia, and what is versus what can be, ahead of all else. Sometimes they do this to good use and sometimes to the detriment of themselves and others.

I personally like the Hierophant. I identify with this card a lot. But occasionally it can represent a certain type of power abused.

 

[firemaiden]

I am glad we are having such a spirited and refreshing discussion.

I checked in Paul Huson's book, "Mystical Origins of Tarot" to see what the history of the fixed meanings has been:

page 93:

Original Cartomantic Interpretations

De Mellet (1781): Jupiter. The Everlasting mounted on an eagle.

Court de Gébelin (1773-82): The high priest or chief hierophant.

Lévi (1855): The Hebrew letter Heh, the pope. Indication, demonstration, instruction, law, symbolism, philosophy, religion.

Christian (1870) Arcanum V. The Master of the Arcana or Sacred Mysteries, the hierophant or occult inspiration. In the divine world, the universal law; in the intellectual world, religion, the relationship of the absolute to the relative being; in the physical world, inspiration.

Mathers (1888): The Hierophant, or Pope. Mercy, benificence, kindness, goodness. Reversed: Overkindness, weakness, foolish generosity.

Golden Dawn (1888-96): Magus of the eternal gods. Hierophant. Divine wisdom. Manifestation, explanation , teaching. Differing from, though resembling in many aspects, the meaning of the Magician, the Prophet (Hermit), and the Lovers. Occult wisdom.

Grand Orient (Waite, 1889, 1909): Pope, or Hierophant. Aspiration, power of the keys, the outward show of spiritual authority, the temporal power of official religion; on the evil side, sacerdotal tyranny and interference.

Waite: (1910): The Hierophant. Marriage, alliance, servitude; by another account [Mathers], mercy and goodness; inspiration; the man to whom the inquirer has recourse. Reversed: Overkindness, weakness, foolish generosity.

Suggested Interpretation

Religion. Science. Orthodoxy. Reversed: Dogmatism. Hypocrisy. Sanctimony​

I would say that the very negative meanings we have been exploring in this thread are good for the reversed meaning of the card.

There is support for both sides of this argument in the history of cartomantic meanings - I prefer to use the meaning as suggested by Golden Dawn as " Magus of the eternal gods. Hierophant. Divine wisdom."

 

[prudence]

I do not want to highjack this thread, but I feel unable to not say something. Umbrae, I am very moved by the courage it took for you to say what you said a few posts back. I realize you did not say this to get sympathy and cyber hugs etc, but it is not everyday that a man admits to such horrors. I am very sorry that happened to you.


TA, this is a most interesting discussion. It is helping me to see how I have viewed the Pope/Hirophant, sometimes with an unfair gender bias.

 

[lark]

I look at the cards as they pertain to my own life and experiences.
When I was a child a big Bishop came to town and there was a special mass at our church.
At one point we were supposed to go up and kiss his ring...a huge blood red rudy.
I balked at the very idea (it just felt from a point of instinct...wrong) and yet I was made to go to the front of the church and kneel down and kiss that ring.
I was later severely punished because as it was put...There was the makings in me of a very head strong child that would never knuckle under to authority and would suffer for it all her life.
Needless to say he was dressed exactly like the traditional Hierophant card and the first time I saw that card I related to it according to that experience.

The telling of that makes my stomach twist...and I am who I am today because I didn't knuckle under, so maybe I have that Bishop/Hierophant to thank.

But he will always represent to me constrictive authority that prevents one from finding the freedom, delight, and wonder of their own way...unless they chose to seperate themselves from the conventional norm and go it alone, thus sacrificing the protection of community and fitting in.

He is a sign post, a choice, a splitting of the ways.
When you get to this card a decision must be made.

Yes, at his most fine he represents the authority that keeps the community together spiritually so that all chaos doesn't ensue...
And at his worst he is a restriction that some souls can never live within.

Yes he is about Spirituality and Community, but very little about the needs of the Individual.

I realise to some my inability to get past my childhood experiences might indicate I am spiritually imature ect. ect.
But those experiences have served me well in reading for others.
This card often comes up for people who want to cut from the herd, but are so intimidated by tradition they can't and consequently feel unfufilled...
On the other hand it shows up for people who need conformity and tradition to feel safe, and long to get back to it when they are in a chaotic situation.

 

[Nevada]

It's important to remember that even the negatives in people or groups can help us with spiritual growth. The positives make great role models, helpful structures in our lives. The negatives teach us what to look out for and not emulate, not get sucked into.

I'm thinking of a church I belonged to for a few years as a young adult. It's not an organization I want anything to do with now, but I learned a lot there, and it is a part of who I am today. I left because the negatives grew in my mind to be more important than the positives that drew and kept me there. Still I have no regrets.

Although in some readings I'd see the Empress and Priestess as feminine and the Emperor and Hierophant as masculilne, that's certainly not always the case. Each person, regarless of physical gender, is a blend of both feminine and masculine, and I think that's important to consider when reading the cards.

I see the Hierophant and Hermit as possibly spiritual teachers, but I associate dogma and structure more with the Hierophant, as well as groups, organizations, and hierarchies, power structures related to spirit. I think of the Hermit as related to a more individual path and the freedom to explore.

Nevada

 

[Fulgour]

Yeah – Ghandi as the Hierophant. I like that. …and his vision,
his dream – and his actions were all prophetic…

I may be geocentric but I still confer "universality" upon
The Hierophant ~ it's about here and here's about now.
And with that I'd like to add that anyone wishing to find
an hierophant need but look to~ the Upper Left Coast USA.