Tarot: Predictive or something far deeper

[mac22]

I Am not sure if this makes sense, as I'm only now adding some of these implications to my chosen definition of tarot. I appreciate this discussion and everyone's ideas tremendously.

Makes good sense to me!

Mac22

 

[Dain]

I don't have much to add, people, except to say this is one of the most amazing threads I've ever read!
Even friends of mine who have nothing to do with tarot but read this thread at my insistence were equally amazed.
One of them said he would never, ever have believed tarot readers would delve into such deep matters, in such intelligent manner with such wise insights about probabilities, psychology etc.
I'm sure they'll think differently from now on about what tarot is!
So, I guess all I have to say (other than thank you for being here) is that any discipline such as tarot that can inspire a discussion like the one you're having here is by definition "something more" than just prediction.

 

[mac22]

I don't have much to add, people, except to say this is one of the most amazing threads I've ever read!
Even friends of mine who have nothing to do with tarot but read this thread at my insistence were equally amazed.
One of them said he would never, ever have believed tarot readers would delve into such deep matters, in such intelligent manner with such wise insights about probabilities, psychology etc.
I'm sure they'll think differently from now on about what tarot is!
So, I guess all I have to say (other than thank you for being here) is that any discipline such as tarot that can inspire a discussion like the one you're having here is by definition "something more" than just prediction.

There is a good deal of combined knowledge, skill, wisdom & training here on AT. A good number imbibe direct at the Wellspring.

Mac22

 

[Rosanne]

That's when I came up with the statement, "Tarot helps me meet whatever comes in the best possible way." The "whatever comes" is really important. I try not to be tied to a single possibility or limited by a single outcome (that may or may not come to pass).

I imagine this as taking a stance, as Feldenkrais describes it, in which I can use my full potential to move equally well in any direction as needed. To do that I have to come to a dynamic center and be aware of and have access to a whole range of options. Insight (versus prediction) helps me exist within a dynamic and react to each event without the constraints of expectations that may not be accurate.

On the other hand, prediction (most often as probability), can help me be aware of opportunities and of consequences to otherwise unrecognized or even unknown actions. I don't want to throw it out, but it is not, for me, the baseline from which I operate, only one of the elements with which I work.

My Emphasis on Mary's words, and is my baseline and why I reckon Tarot works. The whole thing not overstated, nor understated and includes all our myriad approaches to the Tarot. All our skill levels is inherent here, as is our styles and our different attitudes. We can come from all different beliefs about cards and be comfortable in our chosen stream.
Thank you Mary.
~Rosanne

 

[Dave.vdv]

Enjoyable read, thx

I think future events are in some way not that much different then the present now.
So when we read about a present situation we kind of do the same thing just with more probability.
Is there really a now when we think of a moment it's already gone, perception of time says more about us then the actual event.
We kind of see stillframes of constant movement, it's a relative way of perceiving something, our senses and mind work that way.

So everything is in constant movement and has direction , the past is where it comes from and the future where it goes, so you could say it's in a state of something.

The cards can give a sort of bird eye view of the movement, but so many things "lines" cross each other that probability gets more uncertain.
Aldo it is the past that gives the direction of movement i still like to believe there is some free will that can change that, it may take more energy do to swim from left to right in that river.

 

[tmgrl2]

This discussion is brilliant!

I read through all of the posts...don't have much to add...Elven, I loved your entire post with the presentation of probabilities based on all the participants....

And Umbrae...yes...it is about the process...the interaction...the cards, the sitter, the reader, in the moment of the event.


With some of the discussion, I am reminded of the old saw...the person who is supposed to be psychic...the psychic who can "predict."

Psychic says to another person...so what're your plans for later today??

You tell me. You're the psychic.

We've all heard some version of this..and we all know that the whole process just doesn't work this way...like Umbrae's instinct to take his foot off the gas...a probability in the making. What if he didn't take his foot off the gas? But he did. Why? No free will there. Pure and simple instinct.

I also like the idea of believing that the probabilities that are available in the now and those in the immediate and distant future are constantly changing as choices are being made. It's a marvelous universe being created by the observers and the observed.

Quantum physics at work? Before observation, we have the wave of probabilites with observation bringing actualization to only one of the possibilities. Until actualization, though, we cannot "predict" WHICH one of the possibilities will be actualized...hence, introducing an element of spontaneity into events not yet actualized.


So, as firemaiden said...hindsight is critical.

Then, again, if in the process of reading, the sitter leaves with knowledge, with some tools to facilitate outcomes ....then maybe the reading didn't "predict" so much as "cause" the outcome.

And round and round we go.

Can anything truly be fortold, ever?

What does the reader do? We try to weave meaning together from the riddles. Still, wouldn't it be the height of arrogance to think we could ever unriddle the riddler?

I said to my sister-in-law today...(she is always asking WHY God allows things to happen...why did my brother suffer so? Why did all of my family suffer before they died?)....well, if we KNEW the plan, then we would BE God, woudn't we.

Maybe there isn't a plan....so any "predictions" or whatever is said when a reader uses all senses and the images to interact with the sitter and the cards, is really a case of "making it up as we go along...the plan that is."

Also, as a reader, I find that I am, at times, so much more in tune with the interactive process than I am at other times. Sometimes, perhaps, there isn't any "bank robbery" looming in the sitter's future...maybe its really about the fight she is having with her husband. I had one reading, lately, that, in hindsight, was hugely predictive of a path that had absolutely no meaning that I could see in the process of the reading at the time it took place.

A week later, though. Wow!

I find myself liking less and less the discussions of probable card "meanings," since so much of this goes out the window once a reading is entered into in a particular time/space with two participants.

Fabulous discussion.

Today, I read for my masseuse...she ended up with two pages of notes....she cried, she hugged me...she left with all sorts of actions she planned to take. What impact will our exchange have on her future (and mine, for that matter)....I guess we will never know...even with hindsight, since she might have taken some of those actions by virtue of seeing the same possibilities or probabilities through other multiple channels of input.

I can tell you that when we parted, somehow, both of us were different. We were both changed by the process that engaged us. Now THAT is exciting.

To set out cards, images on a table, to open a dialogue, to "tune in" to the images and to the sitter, to "listen" to and to observe my senses, to react to her reactions, to "create" choices together.....

Elven...again...your post is brilliant!

terri

 

[tmgrl2]

An afterthought. I have told this story in another thread.

Thinking about imagery and riddles and "predictions."

Years ago, when my oldest granddaugther was about 9 or 10 years old, we played a game. It was actually a practice of remote viewing, but she thought it was great fun.

Each of us took a smallish object and placed it in a box...about the size of a shoebox...then the other had to "concentrate" and tell about the object.

Not tell what it was...because remote viewing doesn't work that way...just as Tarot doesn't necessarily say...there will be a bank robbery.

Anyhow....here are two of the outcomes I remember.

On one, I said...I see something like a cylinder..silver, turning, removable top, bright colors inside...hard, but soft, too.

When the box was opened, it was

lipstick. All of the elements were there in the "riddle" but I didn't know what it was. I couldn't "name" it.

Then Nic did one. Circle, small , hard, clear...handle, bigger, bigger.

Scratchy...

Opened the box and showed her a small magnifying glass, about size of palm of my hand, ...with a handle..all made of one solid piece of molded plastic of some sort. And it did make things "bigger."

She was delighted. She screamed. I got it!!! A magnifying glass. I don't know if she even realized she had never said: Magnifying glass. She did know it was a "hit," though, in remote-viewing terms. (The viewing window was badly scratched).

So...riddles...and then hindsight names it for us.

terri

 

[mac22]

An afterthought. I have told this story in another thread.

Thinking about imagery and riddles and "predictions."

Years ago, when my oldest granddaugther was about 9 or 10 years old, we played a game. It was actually a practice of remote viewing, but she thought it was great fun.

Each of us took a smallish object and placed it in a box...about the size of a shoebox...then the other had to "concentrate" and tell about the object.

Not tell what it was...because remote viewing doesn't work that way...just as Tarot doesn't necessarily say...there will be a bank robbery.

Anyhow....here are two of the outcomes I remember.

On one, I said...I see something like a cylinder..silver, turning, removable top, bright colors inside...hard, but soft, too.

When the box was opened, it was

lipstick. All of the elements were there in the "riddle" but I didn't know what it was. I couldn't "name" it.

Then Nic did one. Circle, small , hard, clear...handle, bigger, bigger.

Scratchy...

Opened the box and showed her a small magnifying glass, about size of palm of my hand, ...with a handle..all made of one solid piece of molded plastic of some sort. And it did make things "bigger."

She was delighted. She screamed. I got it!!! A magnifying glass. I don't know if she even realized she had never said: Magnifying glass. She did know it was a "hit," though, in remote-viewing terms. (The viewing window was badly scratched).

So...riddles...and then hindsight names it for us.

terri

In College we had a small ad hoc group [6 of us] interested in metaphysics, tarot and the Occult.....

We did RV, tons of Zener card, 5 dice in a dice cup & playing card experiments, Tarot readings, mirror & water skrying, Tattva symbols etc etc.

One day I tried running some Psychometry experiments with a couple of our more skeptical members.

Psychometry is the ability to read events, history, impressions from material objects, rings, stones, keys, pictures etc. The material object acts as a catalyst or focus for the psi faculty.

I took a key off my key ring & handed it to a girl.. It was a plain key with no markings. I said tell me about where this key goes. She described the building in great detail... and then added "There is a cold, that can never get warm."

When I told her the key went to my father's mortuary -- she nearly fainted -- She was soooo skeptical she made me drive there & PROVE -THAT- key opened the mortuary... it did...

Mac22

 

[tmgrl2]

In College we had a small ad hoc group [6 of us] interested in metaphysics, tarot and the Occult.....

One day I tried running some Psychometry experiments with a couple of our more skeptical members.

Psychometry is the ability to read events, history, impressions from material objects, rings, stones, keys, pictures etc. The material object acts as a catalyst or focus for the psi faculty.

I took a key off my key ring & handed it to a girl.. It was a plain key with no markings. I said tell me about where this key goes. She described the building in great detail... and then added "There is a cold, that can never get warm."

When I told her the key went to my father's mortuary -- she nearly fainted -- She was soooo skeptical she made me drive there & PROVE -THAT- key opened the mortuary... it did...

Mac22

What a great story, Mac!! Yes...this is how we "read," I believe...I am familiar with psychometry. Remote viewing was a special interest of mine...I was even in contact with Keith Harary? (believe that is how is name is spelled) who was doing research on remote viewing and was interested in having me as a participant. It never worked out. This was maybe 30 years ago...

With handwritings (which I "read" in college)...I had similar experiences. Recently, one of my classmates sent me a "reading" I did of her handwriting, 45 years ago...and she marked it all up to show the parts that were were, as we would say, "spot on."

But, at the time...often a riddle, as firemaiden said...but in hindsight...clarity.

With tarot and the images, I find an even greater connection than I have had with any other form of ...."reading." (Sorry, Umbrae, never used toothpicks or sweet 'n' low packets...although, I do believe they work, too.)

Then, too, I wonder if given a variety of futures...could we, with hindsight, apply the cards that were drawn to each future, though each might be quite different from the others...application of different ways of reading the cards.

The reading with my granddaughter, one week after the reading, clearly, to us was about her having to "separate herself in some deeply emotional ways" from a "very strong, male, quite possibly female person...very intelligent."

Anyhow, that was only one element of the reading, but Nat's mom, my stepdaughter was diagnosed with advanced stage Ovarian Cancer...all ten cards in the CC reading I did for Nat "suddenly" became clear to us...at the time, I pondered...boyfriend breakup? Had no clue.

Suppose something entirely different had happened the following week.

Would I have been able to take that same reading, even the words I used for it and applied it to whatever situation came up...

Admittedly, it was a powerfully emotional reading...one that I found disturbing as we interacted, and one that I tried to deliver with words that offered hope and action and possibilities for growth and learning. There was no getting around the reading, though. It wasn't a benign, reading about day-to-day events. As I reflected with Nat a week later, we could take each of the cards (I could remember most of them clearly and remember what we discussed)...and see how they applied to this "turn of events."

There was absolutely no hint of anything like this on the horizon. Mom had just graduated as a nurse anesthetist, magna cum..., was ready to lease a house in a new town and start a huge new position..altogether a wonderful time for both of them. Now, Nat's future is as uncertain as her mom's. Mom can't work for a year or more...barely got a one-year renewal of medical insurance, is applying for federal and state aid, got month-to-month extensions on her expired lease. No clue, none whatsoever, until the CT scan a week later.



terri

terri

 

[mac22]

What a great story, Mac!! Yes...this is how we "read," I believe...I am familiar with psychometry. Remote viewing was a special interest of mine...I was even in contact with Keith Harary? (believe that is how is name is spelled) who was doing research on remote viewing and was interested in having me as a participant. It never worked out. This was maybe 30 years ago...

With handwritings (which I "read" in college)...I had similar experiences. Recently, one of my classmates sent me a "reading" I did of her handwriting, 45 years ago...and she marked it all up to show the parts that were were, as we would say, "spot on."

But, at the time...often a riddle, as firemaiden said...but in hindsight...clarity.

With tarot and the images, I find an even greater connection than I have had with any other form of ...."reading." (Sorry, Umbrae, never used toothpicks or sweet 'n' low packets...although, I do believe they work, too.)

terri

I work p/t as a Consultant of a major hosp burn unit. I do Reiki & Chi Gong energy healings. This works well with severe burn pts. In part because there is no need to touch the pt.

To help train very skeptical MDs in energy healing I often go on dowsing "expeditions" I often use coffee stirrers, as dowsing rods -- The hospital cafeteria noticed a big up tick in coffee stirrer use - tracked me down and asked that I/we buy our own -- which we now do, same with spoons & forks for bending

My point here is these advanced mental/spiritual/healing skills can be taught.

Mac22