gregory
I THINK so. Or am I very dim ?Baroli said:
Tarot: Predictive or something far deeper
Rosanne
Well I had never thought of this before. Not in this clear way Firemaiden.firemaiden said:
I seem to need sort of ambiguous images that prompt things from my memory bank or wherever these things come from. Never thought of sniffing the cards. I often hear the sounds around the time of the reading though. Like out in the Garden I would have most likely been aware the rustle and chirp etc. For me relaxing the mind so it can wander is important and not often can I do that successfully when reading for others.
I think I need the cards- because somehow they are the trigger. It is like for me when a knife and fork is in my hand- I know I am about to eat. Maybe without them I am too rigid in thinking and do not allow myself to use this 'other' faculty.Firemaiden said:
It is not another otherworldy voice- it is an image for me. The card image moves. The young boy becomes the man inside the image of the card. The Deviant Moon 10 Swords should have become the hand in the letterbox. It also does not happen enough for me to think it is a gift that is always going to happen. I have no idea how the veil is rent into the future- or even why.Firemaiden said:
Why would I be given that image of the Boy? It was of no help to him or me- nor was it about the intent of the reading in the first place. I am not sure if predicing is that important really- that was what I was saying earlier.
Ummmm... Yes? No? or vice versa. Hmm the jury is always out on that- except it does not seem to happen if I do not have the cards.Firemaiden said:
I must mull over this adequate image question some more....
~Rosanne
firemaiden
Oh my Gosh how'd you know????Umbrae said:
Barbaras Ahajusts
At times...
At times this thread makes so much sense. Then it flounders a bit, then it makes sense. Someone pour me a stiff ice tea, please!
When I first lay the cards, I get the gut feeling. The pictures SOMETIMES come into play. Then as I speak or write, I feel as if someone or something else guides my voice, hands/fingers. The reading falls then into place.
I don't always see things literally, I don't always get that knee jerk emotional understanding, either. Sometimes zoning out and letting what "something else" wants me to say, speaks. (Or is it me...who knows, who cares.) As long as I get to the guts of the need/read, I'm still functioning ok.
Now what was Umbrae saying about how wonderful I am or was that I am so damn beautiful?
(Staring into the mirror for a second..."Damn, that was the best reading he has given me!")
Barbara
At times this thread makes so much sense. Then it flounders a bit, then it makes sense. Someone pour me a stiff ice tea, please!
When I first lay the cards, I get the gut feeling. The pictures SOMETIMES come into play. Then as I speak or write, I feel as if someone or something else guides my voice, hands/fingers. The reading falls then into place.
I don't always see things literally, I don't always get that knee jerk emotional understanding, either. Sometimes zoning out and letting what "something else" wants me to say, speaks. (Or is it me...who knows, who cares.) As long as I get to the guts of the need/read, I'm still functioning ok.
Now what was Umbrae saying about how wonderful I am or was that I am so damn beautiful?
(Staring into the mirror for a second..."Damn, that was the best reading he has given me!")
BarbaraElven
I keep coming back to this thread and thinkng I should be adding something ..
I received Mary's new blog this morning and thought part of the answer may lie there as I agree in probable outcomes (which can be absolute outcomes if the probable one is the outcome). For quite a while, in my spreads I have used this word instead of outcome - not becasue I shy away from the absolute, that at times is available - as clear as water - but not all things have come to pass.
This makes me think then, that there is also the possibility that the robber had not made his decision at the time of the reading to do the robbery either - it may have been present in his unconscious, but not surfaced or acted upon (such as planning) - it may have been spontaneous on his behalf, and hour before. There are those probabilities again.
My perspective: I think I live in fedback - so my future is already happening and available to me. This is not an absolute - it is a future structural mechanism built and basd on my assumptions and beliefs. This is what I see the Major Arcana as being - the structure - like an empty multi-story building yet to have its interior in place. The minors are the interior placements - each floor or room has potential and is probable. I not only have one multi-story building of structure and probabilities - but a street full, and a city full. I wind my way through those streets and structures, my GPS is my emotions, choices, freewill, abilities ...
So as an example lets assume that Heidi has a similar building somewhere - which holds her future. She built it from her past. She has a similar street and a similar city in her reality. She draws a card to unlock the enterance to her past present and future and every increment and level in between. She has a question about the future - she is directing her focus in a forward time manner. The question is the catalyst and the foundation - the card she draws represents the Judgement Building, 20 Future street, Next Week. She stands outside and looks in - she assessess the building and what its about. She walks into the foyer and draws 2 more cards - they say level 3 (of swords) The Knight Room.
Heidi could have walked into any room on any level - because the entire building is structured of the probabilities available from her question and her cards she has drawn. The building (the Arcana, the Architype) can be as big or as small as she needs it to be to hold her probabilities - it is ever evolving, ever changing, being torn down and being built up - just as she is in every second of her own life. She is the master builder of this structure she is the Architect.
Heidi then interprets what she picks up from all her senses and all her understanding and knowledge about this situation and enviroment. Heidi makes a conclusion as to what she interprets. Though she is projecting her interpretation through her personal filters and mirrors and assessing her interpretation.
It might be why Heidi cannot sometimes 'see, smell, feel, hear, touch' the building in its complete form (the future/ the reading) - it is in constant flux and change, yet this doesn't mean its not completely available to her. Maybe see doesn't have the lights on in the 'building' - maybe she has many senses which tell her where she is, but no light or sight to see it or confirm what her senses are telling her - her only clues are her surroundings. She must make an assessment and conclusion on what she is given andwhat she comprehends.
Now if she turned the lights on - opened up to seeing - she may 'have complete awareness' of her answer of what her future holds in very distinct and detailed picture.
Then again there is an element of her future still coming into being possibly at play. What if Heidi's future probability was not yet determined by all the elements that need to come into play - maybe the room was not yet decorated with all the deatils - maybe it was waiting to be determined. She may have the cards which gave her the outline or structure of what was happening - but not all the details.
Stay with me guys
so now we have our bank robber to consider ...
He is living in feedback also - his future is developing, but he is wandering around his future unconsciously, like in a dream. He too has a future structure in development.
and what about the bank teller and the bank customers who also played out and were involved in this drama (psychodrama) ... they too have their own future to walk through and expereince.
In a way - each and every person involved (even those who didn't make the bank on time and 'missed' the ordeal) have a part to play in this reading - they too all had probable futures wich were evolving and collided on that day and in that time and space frame of reality. Each acted in consequence to something in their past - each drew themselves to the situation to bring the experience into being and for them selves to experience the drama first hand - emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, psychologically.
The future or the prediction of that future is a psychological function - to me its not unrelated nor seperated from the whole.
If all the people involved had had their cards read a week before - all may have had very different cards and very different readings and interpretations. Then again, their purpose for the event to manifest would have been very personal and limited to their own needs and development - in all areas, for their own personal reasons.
Could they have seen it as a collective and co-creational event? Could Heidi see it as this? This is maybe where the 'something deeper' aspect comes into play (not that it hasn't been present through-out).
Maybe looking at Heidi's cards - Heidi needed to have something happen to have a sore shoulder or to have her shoulder stepped on (for example - there were a multitude of things we dont know about the incident). Maybe the bank teller needed to be shocked into changing jobs. Maybe the Bank robber needs to head the UN in 30 years time but has chosen to start his experiences to get him to that path by robbing that bank. Maybe the guy who didn't make it to the bank had a revelation in his sleep the night before and woke up late and it put his schedule out.
OK - so that was a blurb ...
Lets go and look at the Tarot - the electricity, the switch, the mechanism to light the room of the future probabilities. The question, the intention, the purpose of the reading. Did the cards 'illuminate' the question? Where they graphic enough - or was the translator not fluent enough in the language of all the senses to translate the answer fully? Was the question structured to suit the intention of clearly defining the probable outcome or was it focused on the purpose of the experiment? I cannot answer these questions regarding heidi's reading - but they come to mind as I pull the threads of the information and questions given by Umrae apart.
So overall I think yes, the experience (psychologically) and the drama (physically manifested) can be illustrated by the use of the cards to give a probable outcome which is set in the future - contained in a psychological and achytipical structure which is driven to conclusion by the collision of manifestation of a multitude of events.
The snapshot of the cards is the capture of this collision - because the event doesn't 'stop' there - it keeps evolving, the drama keeps playing out - the bank robber get in the cab - the bank teller faints and goers to hospital, the police come and take notes, the bank is closed for an hour, the guy who was late now still cant get into the bank ...
Maybe the cards pick up on the highest creshendo - the point of impact for the person/s to see - the highest vibration of the probabilities - the future which is maturing and manifesting by the actions of the whole (all the people) .. maybe it is why it called an opportunity ...
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers
Elven x
I received Mary's new blog this morning and thought part of the answer may lie there as I agree in probable outcomes (which can be absolute outcomes if the probable one is the outcome). For quite a while, in my spreads I have used this word instead of outcome - not becasue I shy away from the absolute, that at times is available - as clear as water - but not all things have come to pass.
This makes me think then, that there is also the possibility that the robber had not made his decision at the time of the reading to do the robbery either - it may have been present in his unconscious, but not surfaced or acted upon (such as planning) - it may have been spontaneous on his behalf, and hour before. There are those probabilities again.
My perspective: I think I live in fedback - so my future is already happening and available to me. This is not an absolute - it is a future structural mechanism built and basd on my assumptions and beliefs. This is what I see the Major Arcana as being - the structure - like an empty multi-story building yet to have its interior in place. The minors are the interior placements - each floor or room has potential and is probable. I not only have one multi-story building of structure and probabilities - but a street full, and a city full. I wind my way through those streets and structures, my GPS is my emotions, choices, freewill, abilities ...
So as an example lets assume that Heidi has a similar building somewhere - which holds her future. She built it from her past. She has a similar street and a similar city in her reality. She draws a card to unlock the enterance to her past present and future and every increment and level in between. She has a question about the future - she is directing her focus in a forward time manner. The question is the catalyst and the foundation - the card she draws represents the Judgement Building, 20 Future street, Next Week. She stands outside and looks in - she assessess the building and what its about. She walks into the foyer and draws 2 more cards - they say level 3 (of swords) The Knight Room.
Heidi could have walked into any room on any level - because the entire building is structured of the probabilities available from her question and her cards she has drawn. The building (the Arcana, the Architype) can be as big or as small as she needs it to be to hold her probabilities - it is ever evolving, ever changing, being torn down and being built up - just as she is in every second of her own life. She is the master builder of this structure she is the Architect.
Heidi then interprets what she picks up from all her senses and all her understanding and knowledge about this situation and enviroment. Heidi makes a conclusion as to what she interprets. Though she is projecting her interpretation through her personal filters and mirrors and assessing her interpretation.
It might be why Heidi cannot sometimes 'see, smell, feel, hear, touch' the building in its complete form (the future/ the reading) - it is in constant flux and change, yet this doesn't mean its not completely available to her. Maybe see doesn't have the lights on in the 'building' - maybe she has many senses which tell her where she is, but no light or sight to see it or confirm what her senses are telling her - her only clues are her surroundings. She must make an assessment and conclusion on what she is given andwhat she comprehends.
Now if she turned the lights on - opened up to seeing - she may 'have complete awareness' of her answer of what her future holds in very distinct and detailed picture.
Then again there is an element of her future still coming into being possibly at play. What if Heidi's future probability was not yet determined by all the elements that need to come into play - maybe the room was not yet decorated with all the deatils - maybe it was waiting to be determined. She may have the cards which gave her the outline or structure of what was happening - but not all the details.
Stay with me guys
so now we have our bank robber to consider ...
He is living in feedback also - his future is developing, but he is wandering around his future unconsciously, like in a dream. He too has a future structure in development.
and what about the bank teller and the bank customers who also played out and were involved in this drama (psychodrama) ... they too have their own future to walk through and expereince.
In a way - each and every person involved (even those who didn't make the bank on time and 'missed' the ordeal) have a part to play in this reading - they too all had probable futures wich were evolving and collided on that day and in that time and space frame of reality. Each acted in consequence to something in their past - each drew themselves to the situation to bring the experience into being and for them selves to experience the drama first hand - emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, psychologically.
The future or the prediction of that future is a psychological function - to me its not unrelated nor seperated from the whole.
If all the people involved had had their cards read a week before - all may have had very different cards and very different readings and interpretations. Then again, their purpose for the event to manifest would have been very personal and limited to their own needs and development - in all areas, for their own personal reasons.
Could they have seen it as a collective and co-creational event? Could Heidi see it as this? This is maybe where the 'something deeper' aspect comes into play (not that it hasn't been present through-out).
Maybe looking at Heidi's cards - Heidi needed to have something happen to have a sore shoulder or to have her shoulder stepped on (for example - there were a multitude of things we dont know about the incident). Maybe the bank teller needed to be shocked into changing jobs. Maybe the Bank robber needs to head the UN in 30 years time but has chosen to start his experiences to get him to that path by robbing that bank. Maybe the guy who didn't make it to the bank had a revelation in his sleep the night before and woke up late and it put his schedule out.
OK - so that was a blurb ...
Lets go and look at the Tarot - the electricity, the switch, the mechanism to light the room of the future probabilities. The question, the intention, the purpose of the reading. Did the cards 'illuminate' the question? Where they graphic enough - or was the translator not fluent enough in the language of all the senses to translate the answer fully? Was the question structured to suit the intention of clearly defining the probable outcome or was it focused on the purpose of the experiment? I cannot answer these questions regarding heidi's reading - but they come to mind as I pull the threads of the information and questions given by Umrae apart.
So overall I think yes, the experience (psychologically) and the drama (physically manifested) can be illustrated by the use of the cards to give a probable outcome which is set in the future - contained in a psychological and achytipical structure which is driven to conclusion by the collision of manifestation of a multitude of events.
The snapshot of the cards is the capture of this collision - because the event doesn't 'stop' there - it keeps evolving, the drama keeps playing out - the bank robber get in the cab - the bank teller faints and goers to hospital, the police come and take notes, the bank is closed for an hour, the guy who was late now still cant get into the bank ...
Maybe the cards pick up on the highest creshendo - the point of impact for the person/s to see - the highest vibration of the probabilities - the future which is maturing and manifesting by the actions of the whole (all the people) .. maybe it is why it called an opportunity ...
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers
Elven x
Umbrae
Whooo hoo hoo of course it makes sense. Tis brilliant!Elven said:
It's why I find the Tarot usually does not work well at predicting baseball game winners, but does well at team suggestions.
Sometimes some of the probable outcomes become unavailable to us as time marches on - and the predictive reading turns out to totally suck (which sometimes it does).
Nevada
Elven, I'm fascinated by your thinking on this that you've put into words here. It reminds me of a blog post at Dean Radin's Entangled Minds blog about a year ago:Elven said:
http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html
He describes having dreamed that he would have an accident, changing his route that morning to try to avoid it, and then having an accident anyway.
Are these kinds of things predestined sometimes, I wonder, or does our unconscious know all this in advance and choose -- to dream about an accident so we change our route and have one, or to enter a bank right when a robbery is about to happen. Are they, as you say, opportunities?
In predictive astrology there are windows of probability, it seems. A great, complex, universal clock with each of us also on our own personal clocks that somehow mesh with the universal one, perhaps more like gears inside a clock.
It does all make one wonder, about choices. We make the best choices we know how, and then things happen, often completely differently than we think we planned. Perhaps tarot is infinitely capable of prediction, and perhaps we're infinitely capable of choices, in ways we just can't consciously see -- until we open our inner eyes.
Anyway, thanks for your brilliant post, and to everyone else for theirs, especially to Teheuti for her brilliant blog. I'm enjoying and learning from this single thread enough to keep my mind occupied for months!
Nevada
Gazel
Umbrae said:
Hello Umbrae
Well, It may come as a surprise, but I'm not here to win some popularity contest ;o) I'm here to try to figure out for my self (by participating in this dialogue) what tarot is and what it can do, and hopeful as I am, I don't like to shut any potential or possibility out of the range ;o)
That's why I like the greyzones not the Black&White (tarot) worldview. Off course it makes thing somewhat obscure, fuzzy, uncertain, but therein lies the beauty of the whole venture, I should say.
That being said, I still think it is helpful to try to find out where on the spectrum one find ones own approach. But one could be tricked by the cards now and then.
Love, Gazel, who is not trying to be sarcastic just slightly ironic.
Gazel
Elven said:
It does make sense. I just have to digest it, so to speak. I must confess it did made me a bit dizzy when I first read it some hours ago ;o)
What I like about it is - forgive me for interpretating, but this is what I got out of it: - that an incident, or something taking place, or happening, is not just about one person, but about all those taking part in it. And that those people were all part of making or creating what happened in the bank. And all had a potential for being or not being part of it at the time the reading for Heidi took place, so it could't be said certainly that exactly this would happen, but that there was some pointers towards it or some potential for it to happen.
I hope I've got it right. And I must say that hat you wrote here added layers to the complexity of predicting things, in my point of view.
GazelETA: Think I just got some of it - have to read it for foru or five more times, I guees ;o)
Teheuti
This is similar to one of the best descriptions I've heard of karma. Thanks for a great metaphor.Elven said:
Really interesting way to see this. I also like the idea of constant flux and rebuilding.
My favorite way of phrasing questions or issues focuses on just this "What do I most need to look at in my life right now" with an optional specification ". . . around ______?" This was not the way we asked the prediction question—but rather for a concrete, tangible event prediction for the coming week.
I really enjoyed your ruminations.
Mary
